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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:10:08 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Think what you want zeph, I know what I see as truth in my mind. I admit it might be wrong and if so I want to know. WTF more do you want. Remember what I said, even with a gun to my head if I don't want to give you the time of day I will not.

If I am to be rehabed at all, I know full well that I will have to do it myself. If I was in complete denial, this thread would not exist.

T

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:11:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Unless, like the op, you are an alcoholic.

Exactly. Social drinking isn't going to be possible. One drink will never be one drink; one night will never be one night.

I haven't had a drink since Jan. 2009. Best damn decision I ever made.

There's only one secret to stopping drinking--put down the drink. And it's not something anyone has to go through alone. AA can help him both with talking to people who have been there and with the roller coaster ride that will come after for a time.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:20:59 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Unless, like the op, you are an alcoholic.

Exactly. Social drinking isn't going to be possible. One drink will never be one drink; one night will never be one night.

I haven't had a drink since Jan. 2009. Best damn decision I ever made.

There's only one secret to stopping drinking--put down the drink. And it's not something anyone has to go through alone. AA can help him both with talking to people who have been there and with the roller coaster ride that will come after for a time.


MM, I agree with you on most issues but you are undoubtedly going to be offended when I say the only thing worse than a religious zealot is a recovering alcoholic.

I do have a serious question though.  In previous posts you have stated you are an atheist.  How do you reconcile that with AA's emphasis on a higher power?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:22:48 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

But the whole point is that I made a concious decision to get drunk
in the same way that you made a conscious decision to drive drunk, Term. No one holds a loaded gun to your head to drink and/or drive drunk.
quote:

That ticket last week means nothing to me except for that one number on it - .191.
What that ticket means to me Term...you risked your life, the lives of those in the car with you, and every innocent person on the road. Why in Gods name do you feel you have the right to do that?

You are here asking for a temporary substitute for alcohol so you can see what effects it has on you. Gee..thats nice. You consistantly drive drunk and put others at risk and you are worried about yourself? Hell...worry about the other drivers for once and stop looking for a "temporary" substitute. Look for a permanent way to stop.

If you continue drinking, it is almost a certainty you will drive drunk...you have done so too many times in the past to think otherwise. I'll say it again...you do not have the right to risk the lives of others.




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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:27:31 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Unless, like the op, you are an alcoholic.

Exactly. Social drinking isn't going to be possible. One drink will never be one drink; one night will never be one night.

I haven't had a drink since Jan. 2009. Best damn decision I ever made.

There's only one secret to stopping drinking--put down the drink. And it's not something anyone has to go through alone. AA can help him both with talking to people who have been there and with the roller coaster ride that will come after for a time.


MM, I agree with you on most issues but you are undoubtedly going to be offended when I say the only thing worse than a religious zealot is a recovering alcoholic.

That is a pretty broad brush you are painting with...especially since i have not seen MM fit the "zealot" role in any way.


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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:29:36 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

MM, I agree with you on most issues but you are undoubtedly going to be offended when I say the only thing worse than a religious zealot is a recovering alcoholic.

Not at all. This is your fantasy, not reality (you've certainly not seen zealotry from me). The man can't stop drinking. That's well established. Help is available. Common sense.

quote:

I do have a serious question though. In previous posts you have stated you are an atheist. How do you reconcile that with AA's emphasis on a higher power?

"Higher Power" doesn't need to mean "God." Certainly Tao is far greater than me! So is the natural progression of an alcohol-fueled disease. But so too is simply a group of people, a group that has been there, done that, heard it already, and is ready to share their experience with someone new struggling to quit.

If, on the other hand, he's determined to live in a world of excuses and denial, I'll buy him the next round. AA is for people who want to stop drinking, not for all who need it.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/9/2010 9:32:59 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:32:06 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		I was not even aware that you were recovering.

I see no zealot in you

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:45:00 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP.

Alcoholism is a disease, frequently genetic. You've spoken about your father's excessive alcohol usage, you inherited alcoholism from him.



Yes, everything is a disease so we really don't have to take any responsibility for our actions anymore.

Someone drinks too much because they have the disease of alcoholism which was genetically inherited.

Someone smokes too much because they have the disease of nicotine addiction.

Someone is obese because they have the disease of food addiction.

Someone fucks everything in sight because they have the disease of sexual addiction.

I'm waiting for someone to create a website so we can all be cured of  the disease of computer addiction.

I spend way too much time on this computer, but it's really not my fault, I have a disease.







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 5/9/2010 9:46:09 AM >

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:46:07 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		If he wants help, he can have it.

It's not possible to understand what's going on for real when one is still drinking.

If he takes the hand held out, now or later, great. If not, it will get worse, but he'll just have to cope as best he can until he decides enough is enough.

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:48:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		rule,

I'm all for taking responsibility. That's important.

But you're speaking from ignorance on this topic. It's not helpful.

Maybe ask yourself just what's going on with you that tweaks this nerve so much for you.

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:48:48 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
]That is a pretty broad brush you are painting with...especially since i have not seen MM fit the "zealot" role in any way.



I would agree, but I think in this thread and Term's other thread he has been overreaching.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 5/9/2010 9:50:07 AM >

(in reply to sirsholly)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:50:58 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Maybe so, but I think in this thread and Term's other thread he has been overreaching.

Rather, you're being bizarrely defensive, even when not attacked.

My comments to Term are factual ones. Read them again. The fanaticism here is yours. Take a look and ask yourself why you feel threatened.

I have no idea why.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/9/2010 9:51:58 AM >

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 9:58:16 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
]That is a pretty broad brush you are painting with...especially since i have not seen MM fit the "zealot" role in any way.



I would agree, but I think in this thread and Term's other thread he has been overreaching.
i see MM reaching out to Term. Why are you confusing that with overreaching?


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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:07:41 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not at all. This is your fantasy, not reality (you've certainly not seen zealotry from me). The man can't stop drinking. That's well established. Help is available. Common sense.


All I have seen him say is he does not want help and he needs to do it himself, which seems to me a sensible statement.

quote:


"Higher Power" doesn't need to mean "God." Certainly Tao is far greater than me! So is the natural progression of an alcohol-fueled disease. But so too is simply a group of people, a group that has been there, done that, heard it already, and is ready to share their experience with someone new struggling to quit.


Let's not deny that AA has its roots in an evangelical Christian organization and the higher power phrase has been convoluted to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.  Bill W is rolling over in his grave.

I'm happy it is working for you but I don't believe in the concepts.

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:10:42 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Maybe so, but I think in this thread and Term's other thread he has been overreaching.

Rather, you're being bizarrely defensive, even when not attacked.

My comments to Term are factual ones. Read them again. The fanaticism here is yours. Take a look and ask yourself why you feel threatened.

I have no idea why.


I don't feel threatened.

I am only giving my opinions.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:14:19 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have quite a few friends who work the program very successfully. Whatever the roots are it has certainly helped too many people to be dismissed out of hand.

The fact that you don't like it is meaningless and possibly harmful to someone like tremy who, it seems, could really use the help.

It is possible you are just reinforcing his position that he wants to quit, but really won't do anything about it because the program sucks

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:14:20 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i see MM reaching out to Term. Why are you confusing that with overreaching?



For one, because while I can't speak for Term, he seems to have made it abundantly clear that he does not think rehab will work for him and if he is going to succeed he needs to do it himself.

The overreaching is when people tell him he is wrong and that he cannot.

(in reply to sirsholly)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:16:12 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have never seen anyone with a drinking problem be able to just quit.

It doesn't happen. It's a nice thought but unrealistic.



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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:20:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
I don't feel threatened.

I am only giving my opinions.

No, you're not. You're going out of your way to attack, and you're reaching for evidence that isn't there.

It's true the early AA groups were Christian. It's true many AA folk today are Christian. So what? If it helps them, I'm glad.

Term is, in fact, asking for help in his own way, bringing it up multiple times, asking for suggestions for various half measures, saying repeatedly he intends to stop for a time--and yet he doesn't.

Help is available if he wants to take it, and from people who have been there. If you "disagree with that concept," I think you're being silly, and who cares anyway?

Bill W came up with the idea that two alcoholics talking to each other would do better than each struggling to quit alone. Literally, this is what AA came from. If you want to complicate it, go ahead. You're not going to come up with anything I didn't when I was still drinking.

For whatever reason, you have a problem with this. When you know what it is, come on back.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/9/2010 10:22:36 AM >

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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/9/2010 10:30:45 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i see MM reaching out to Term. Why are you confusing that with overreaching?



For one, because while I can't speak for Term, he seems to have made it abundantly clear that he does not think rehab will work for him and if he is going to succeed he needs to do it himself.

The overreaching is when people tell him he is wrong and that he cannot.



But he is wrong. His argument is based on a flawed premise - his insistence that he is in control of his life and can make responsible decisions when he feels the time is right, both of which are clearly not true. He has no control over his drinking, and he's just kidding himself with his rationalizations. Every assumption he bases on his rationalizations is incorrect, and since all of his assumptions seem to be rooted in these rationalizations, he is wrong in his conclusions. 

From where he is now, he can  not quit, because he doesn't recognize or understand the problem. In order to quit - whether it's on his own, or with the help of a program - he needs to get himself to a different starting point, because as long as he stays stuck in this one, he can't go anywhere but in circles. MM seems to recognize that, and he sounds to me as though his evaluation is dead on the money.


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(in reply to rulemylife)
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