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Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 3:54:28 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline 		I wanted to address something that I have been thinking about lately.

Ladies, if your submissive approaches you on several occasions about a certain way of play that he is hungering for, or any other idea that he would enjoy, (but you may not necessarily enjoy), but isn't getting any response from you, for whatever reason, you may be ignoring him because you may feel he is being manipulative, or whatever.

Is he really being manipulating or is he perhaps unsure as to HOW to ask for what he wants, for fear of being accused of topping from the bottom?

Example:

Sub: Mistress, I sure would look good wearing a maids outfit while cleaning

Mistress: Oh? Would you now?

Sub gets nervous by tone of Mistress and drops the subject.

Few days later:

Sub: Mistress, you should see this new maids outfit that I bought.

Mistress: I'm sure it is lovely

The Mistress in this example feels that he is trying to manipulate his way into wearing the maids outfit to clean. But suppose, he isn't manipulating, but is just unsure about how to ask her straight out?

So my question is to you...

As a Mistress, would you dismiss what he has said, because you feel he is topping from the bottom? Or you feel that the sub is trying to manipulate you, and you will not be manipulated? But if you don't ignore it, would you then use his ideas or his suggestions to "punish" him for being so manipulating?

Or

Do you feel that the sub is having a difficult time in telling you what he would enjoy, and perhaps there is a lack of communication here? Instead of ignoring his requests or his comments, would you ask him to tell you exactly what it is that he would like, in a simple respectful manner?

Or you could feel both ways. If there is a third option here, I would love to hear it.

I have had submissives who have found it rather difficult to tell me what they would like done to them or for them because of that very same fear, and then later, after I had a chance to really think about things, I realized that I should have been more open to hearing him. I am the kind of person that wants a person to give me the bottom line. I don't take to hints too well. I just want to hear it straight out. But because of this attitude that I have, it made it difficult for a sub to come right out and tell me.

I don't see anything wrong with a submissive telling his Mistress what he wants. I don't see it as a "do me" sub at all. I see it as a sub who would like to enjoy the dynamic as much as I do and in order to enjoy it, he has to have his needs/wants met too. But then again, I also do not believe that it is all about the Dominant in a D/s dynamic.

What are your thoughts? Comments? I do welcome submissives thoughts of this as well.

MoGa

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:11:34 PM   
Drifa


Posts: 547
Joined: 7/27/2007
From: Rural Texas
Status: offline 		What ever happened to simply communicating honestly from the get-go?

It's my job as a sub to communicate clearly to my Lady. It's her job to decide what to do about that communication. We both have needs, and in an ongoing relationship both partners need certain needs met. The difference is that while we both articulate our needs, she gets to decide when, where, and what, while I say "Yes ma'am!"

I can *always* ask for a particular kink or experience. My Lady talks to me about it, and often explores my ideas about where I think I want to go with these notions. The best time to have these discussions is outside of play or sex, and presenting things as requests or "I think I might enjoy" in a respectful way in no way diminishes my submission or her dominance.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:16:19 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I ask before play as we get to know one another, during sometimes and after. There is no reason that I can think of that they can say things manipulatively and yet can't say Ma'am, I am interested in this or could we try this Ma'am(?).

One is forthright and the other isn't. If my submissive cannot be verbally forthright with me and talk about kink or ask me a question, I feel I have no business playing with him. If he cannot communicate or is afraid of me somehow or can't deal with his own needs and how to get them met, then we have a problem in communication (or emotional health) that needs to be repaired or fixed in the first place. If I am going to allow the mis-communication or not recognizing how his words come off when he isn't forthright and honest with me, things are going to break down elsewhere in the relationship.

His communication issues are not something I should spend too much time blaming myself for or it could become a thing where they are enabled to mis-communicate and I can be blamed for all sorts of things. If there was a situation like this, he would be getting a real quick education on passive aggressive behavior and speech and how to speak forthright with an open minded dominant who cares about him. There would be no other play until he got it. All fixed, no question and doubt and maybe more importantly, no blame game.


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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:17:04 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa

What ever happened to simply communicating honestly from the get-go?

It's my job as a sub to communicate clearly to my Lady. It's her job to decide what to do about that communication. We both have needs, and in an ongoing relationship both partners need certain needs met. The difference is that while we both articulate our needs, she gets to decide when, where, and what, while I say "Yes ma'am!"

I can *always* ask for a particular kink or experience. My Lady talks to me about it, and often explores my ideas about where I think I want to go with these notions. The best time to have these discussions is outside of play or sex, and presenting things as requests or "I think I might enjoy" in a respectful way in no way diminishes my submission or her dominance.



Thank you Drifa..I feel the same way. Now. But there was a time where I was very closed off about hearing my sub talk about what he wanted or needed. I have grown alot since then :)

Communication, we talk about it all the time..to the point of overkill but still, it IS the best and most honest way of handling things. It truly is the key to a healthy productive relationship. D/s or otherwise.

Thanks for responding!

MoGa

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:27:00 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		What I consider "manipulative" is when he or she tries to sneak in stuff that is an utter NO for me. I am very very up front about what I really hate doing. I do not, for instance, do feminization. I am cool with someone who wants to dress en femme as long as he understands that he will NOT be doing it with me, but with some mutually agreed upon Other Parties. Got a spiffy maid outfit? Excellent! Show it to me when you go out one night.

I really resent being hammered with hints. Just come on and ASK for what you want. I might say no, I might say later on. But really, it IS up to me when things happen.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:28:53 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

I ask before play as we get to know one another, during sometimes and after. There is no reason that I can think of that they can say things manipulatively and yet can't say Ma'am, I am interested in this or could we try this Ma'am(?).


Thanks Lockit..I should have made it clearer that I was referring to a D/s relationship, not just a play partner. And I agree, there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to ask or tell their Domina what it is that they need.

I dont see any reason to blame anyone for lack of communication. I was asking if you thought that the way the submissive was asking or hinting, was a form of manipulation on his/her part. I also didnt think of the example of being passive/aggressive. I was thinking that it may be a case of miscommunication or fear of. But I can see where you would think of it as a passive/aggressive type of thing.

Thanks for responding, it's been a while since we chatted :) Hope things are well with you *Hugs*

MoGa

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:30:41 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

What I consider "manipulative" is when he or she tries to sneak in stuff that is an utter NO for me. I am very very up front about what I really hate doing. I do not, for instance, do feminization. I am cool with someone who wants to dress en femme as long as he understands that he will NOT be doing it with me, but with some mutually agreed upon Other Parties. Got a spiffy maid outfit? Excellent! Show it to me when you go out one night.

I really resent being hammered with hints. Just come on and ASK for what you want. I might say no, I might say later on. But really, it IS up to me when things happen.

THIS right here is why you and I get along so great. GMTA! Thanks Frannie!

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:35:49 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Hello MoGA,

Even couples that have been married for years and years have difficulty with speaking their deepest thoughts.

How about having them write in a journal on occasion? It's a great way to express while taking away some of the fear.

Best,
sunshine

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:38:49 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What ever happened to simply communicating honestly from the get-go?


That's what I was thinking. I for one don't ignore or dismiss what someone I care is trying to tell me. Maybe that's why the men I've dated have always found me easy to talk to.

- LA

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 4:41:26 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What I consider "manipulative" is when he or she tries to sneak in stuff that is an utter NO for me. I am very very up front about what I really hate doing.


In my experience, these are the kinds of things that happen in the beginning, not when the relationship is established. That might have something to do with the fact that this kind of behaviour makes it impossible for them to get to the next level.

- LA

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 7:12:04 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Speaking strictly for myself, I don't think in terms of "manipulative". Carol sometimes wants things. Sometimes she'll push repeatedly for them. If I think it's a bad idea, then I'm simply the immovable object. I think more in terms of whether I can be manipulated than whether she is being manipulative. And, as Drifa said, Carol's intent is never covert or ill-meaning. I think of it as all honest communication.

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 7:27:57 PM   
youngsubgeoff


Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline 		Alot of submissives, myself included, DO have problems asking for what we want. One, it seems to fly against our very nature. Alot think they dont deserve to have what they want. Also, Ive seen a dominant pull the "topping from the bottom" or the dreaded "your not really submissive" card out of their asses. So yes, its hard for us to ask for what we want. I dont know how to fix it, this is just my perspective of where it comes from.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/4/2010 10:50:31 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm in full and complete agreement with Lady H.  I don't do hints and I don't do round about suggestions.  I don't have an issue with clip asking for certain types of play.  At the same time, when he receives it is going to be My decision.  If for some reason he's impatient about it or continues to hint, he's going to find that his wait is just a bit longer.




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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 8:45:52 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Geoff makes a good point---and I guess that's where negotiation and just plain TALKING come into play. Enomously difficult things, really, since if you are truly attracted to that dominant, the default is to want to please them (ideally! ) and what if the stuff you want is just a little taboo?

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 8:50:44 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff
Alot of submissives, myself included, DO have problems asking for what we want. One, it seems to fly against our very nature. Alot think they dont deserve to have what they want. Also, Ive seen a dominant pull the "topping from the bottom" or the dreaded "your not really submissive" card out of their asses. So yes, its hard for us to ask for what we want. I dont know how to fix it, this is just my perspective of where it comes from.
*nods* Carol is included in that category. That is exactly why she is more outspoken as my slave than she was as my wife. As her husband, I could only become exasperated with her when she wouldn't tell me important things. Now I can command.

My own personal viewpoint only. On the asking for what you want card, it is my view that in the end, submission comes down to "obedience". You can ASK for whatever in the world you want. What matters is that you obey. That keeps things clean and simple. On the "topping from the bottom" card, I can only suggest finding dominants who are secure in their own position.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 8:54:11 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Geoff makes a good point---and I guess that's where negotiation and just plain TALKING come into play. Enomously difficult things, really, since if you are truly attracted to that dominant, the default is to want to please them (ideally! ) and what if the stuff you want is just a little taboo?
Actually, my strategy for dealing with that with Carol was pretty simple. I reminded her... several times... that I wasn't just her husband anymore. I am her master. She cannot cause me to do something I don't want to do. Essentially, I reminded her that the burden of making the final choice was mine and mine alone. The only thing she could ever do was offer up input and ideas. I also stressed strongly that communication pleased me a great deal... silence did not.

That concept seemed to really free her up to just say whatever it was that she wanted to say.

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 9:21:07 AM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		I have my slave tell me what he dreams of, in great detail. The whole point of our D/s is mutual pleasure, fulfillment, and self- actualization. We cannot help each other bring our dreams to fruition if we don't communicate our needs and desires clearly.

If you're topping, you are on top. So there's no such thing as topping from the bottom. I decide what is done, and how- and what stays in dreamtime. It is essential to our purpose, that I make informed decisions. So yeah, I agree with you MoGa. D/s was never supposed to be all about the dom. Even if the s- type says they want/need it to be all about the dom, then by definition it is still about what that s-type wants/needs too. Case in point: female supremacists. Most of them seem to be guys, IMHO. So if their fulfillment involves putting her on a pedestal, then that in itself is catering to their needs. There's nothing wrong with catering shamelessly to your s-types needs and desires while they do the same for you. Indeed, if I were to be accused of one-true-wayism, that right there would be it in a nutshell for me: mutual pleasure, fulfillment and self- realization are the goals. Fish gotta swim. Birds gotta fly. We are born to be the fullest expression of ourselves, and to help each other live our authentic lives. Live the life you were born for.



(edited for spellcheck!)

< Message edited by dreamerdreaming -- 5/5/2010 9:23:07 AM >

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 9:42:39 AM   
MsMillgrove


Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline 		I don't mind the round-about suggestion. I get it. Sub wants to play maid. Doesn't want to come right out with it. no problem to me. Would say exactly what the mistress in your example said. Then, maybe a week later. when the sub does something I think is quite excellent, will reward by saying.. oh.. why don't you wear your maid's uniform and we'll have a little tea party.

We're not all open--talk talk talk types. Some people are more subtle. I don't miss much and am fine with gentle hints. Actually I think it's rather polite and sweet, and not manipulative.

Journals are great for understanding where everyone's head is at, particularly since I often comment on the journal or make a clarificaton or get ideas from the fantasies. Every d/s dynamic is different. I tend towards dreamer's view that that mutual pleasure, fullfillment and self-realization make for a happy, satisfying relationship. Not everyone wants that style of life together, but it's one I've loved.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 9:51:07 AM   
VampiresLair


Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline 		I would personally have issues with the sub going out and buying the outfit without permission to do so, since THAT would be manipulative in my eyes. It is one thing to int at wanting to try it, but then going out and getting the prop is the first step in a manipulative forcing of that kink on me. What comes next, just putting it on and doing your chores without asking me if you can? Or modeling it for me, without asking my input, so you can show me you were right and how good you look?

If someone cannot come out and ask me for something they want then they do not want it that badly. When I got Fox one of the first things we talked about was open communication and how I was not a mind reader. I do not pick up on subtle hints and I dont really want to try and learn how. If he wants something he needs to tell me. If he cant, he needs to figure out why he is hesitant. He knows that I wont pull out the "topping from the bottom" card simply because telling me what he wants IS an order.

DV


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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/5/2010 10:07:36 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

would personally have issues with the sub going out and buying the outfit without permission to do so, since THAT would be manipulative in my eyes.

I was wondering if anyone was going to catch this. DV, I feel the exact same way. If I want to see my boy in a maids outfit, I will get the outfit for him. If I come home from shopping and my boy is sitting by the door with a whip in his hand and a rose between his teeth, I would not be pleased. I just came home, Im tired and I want to relax, I dont want to be manipulated into playing simply because he gave me a rose or was holding one of my toys.

Geoff, I agree with you. There are many subs out there who don't feel it is their place to ask or even question as to whether they get play or not. And then there is that fear of rejection when you finally do get up the nerve to ask. As you can see, you are not alone in this way of thinking.

Dreamer, I have spent hours and hours talking to a boy about what both of our dreams are, our asperations, our goals and still have been completely clueless when it came to actually hearing what it is that they were trying to say. I thank God every day that I was able to spend this past year working on what *I* can do to improve myself as a woman and as a Mistress.

I love the responses and the different perspectives I have seen on this thread. Thank you all so much :)

MoGa

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