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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 3:42:40 AM   
sodsta


Posts: 246
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline 		This is where the whole "everyone's definition is different" thing comes into play, because consensual non-consent to me is more like role-play. The Dom/me pretends to be the attacker/rapist/whatever, and the sub pretends to be the victim. Safewords are still in place if the scene goes too far, but for all intents and purposes, the couple are essentially play-acting a rape or abuse scene.

The sub/victim can cry and beg and say "Stop. Please don't do this. Please stop" and all variations thereof, but unless the actual safeword is uttered, the Dom/me/Attacker/Rapist can just keep on going.

< Message edited by sodsta -- 5/5/2010 3:46:15 AM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 3:50:15 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		And what if you don't have a safeword? 95% of the time I have no means of stopping him from doing whatever it is he wants to do.
Gotta love inescapable bondage. It stops when and only when he wants it to stop.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 4:29:23 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:


......His code to do no harm is necessary for me to be able to be in the relationship with him.



To open a locked door you require the right key if you hope to enjoy everything that is with in the room.

Of course... you could just kick the door down... but part of the enjoyment of the room is the door itself. It is also knowing that you have the key that no one else has to open the door.

Being who I am is the Key to enjoy everything that is Kyra and Alandra. I think this is why I don't particularly care for the term Consensual/Non-consensual. It seems to imply that there is a conscious thoughtful consideration involved in making the choice to consent to be in the relationship. I believe that sometimes it's more about an awareness that is obtained and accepted by those involved. Once that awareness is obtained and accepted it makes consent irrelevant. You can't deny that the key opens the door anymore than you can deny that you own someone or are owned. It seems that it's more about authentic self-identification of what is IS, and less about consent.



I'm going to have to ponder on this a while. A few months ago I had started a thread about choice, about whether people chose to be who they were or simply surrendered to a fate, and I was in favour of thinking that on some level it was a choice, albeit not always conscious. On that premise, I might have an issue with simply saying that someone accepts a role in life rather than choosing it. I will agree that we are all strongly drawn to certain dynamics or roles and on that premise, I like the idea of it being more about something feeling right or as you put it, about authentic self-identification.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 4:34:51 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

We've operated within a TPE for 3 years that would fall under your definition of non-consent. Essentially she has no rights other than those I choose to allow, which is how we both like it and want it. I would say that it works because of the following reasons:
1-We are both rational adults. The importance of this cannot be understated.

Absolutely!

quote:

2-We have similar values and morals and both of us live life's based in spiritual principles.

I think it is important for individuals to be aligned with similar values and morals for a relationship to work as for spiritual principles, it's not so much important for them to be present as it is for them to be aligned.

quote:

3-We communicate, a lot, about damn near everything.

That is so very important

quote:

Edited to add
4-Oh yeah, she's an awesome fucking slave. That helps lots lots lots.


I bet :-)

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 4:45:14 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Sounds to me like you have your personal power base, concepts of "play," and dynamics of delegating authority in a rather confusing situation.


I appreciate you chiming in aldompdx and I understand that some of the things discussed here might not sit with you well. Making large sweeping statements about what is right or wrong however isn't going to make for a very productive discussion.

Try to read some of the responses from people who live this dynamic (without necessarily approving of the term it was given but rather the definition) with an open mind. Let me know if you come to the same conclusion. I don't see abuse being reflected in what Aileen, NuevaVida or dark are reporting nor do I feel anything but absolute love from Jeff (leadership), KnightofMists and Kana.

If you end up keeping your opinion of all this, that is your personal choice. Know however that within the realm of WIITWD, it is accepted by portion of the population that this is not abuse when both parties want this dynamic.

- LA



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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 5:07:00 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		Consensual Non-Consent is just another term for a master-slave total power exchange relationship. The phrase was invented by people living that way in the late 1980s (a time in which the pre-world-wide-web internet was rapidly gaining popularity and recognition) who were speaking about their lives in a hostile, top/bottom heavy (pardon the pun) environment, to soften the impact of the words ("master/slave" had all kinds of silly connotations among the community players back then and continues to be derided as fantasy by those who do not live that way). Some people who heaped ridcule on master/slave relationships were able to grasp the idea of consensual non-consent and even appreciate it. Task acomplished. :)

Yes this dynamic can work over the course of a relationship. For some of us, it's the only way we can live (in a relationship). Yes, I lived it, for many long, happy years. No major challenges in regards to the nature of the relationship, we just experienced the stuff of life (slings and arrows) that everybody faces sooner or later. At present, what I look for primarily in a future partner is someone who intuitively and naturally grasps this dynamic, howsoever he or she may communicate it.

Communication can take many forms so discussions of procedures seem futile to me, unless you're dealing with people backward enough to need very basic, kindergarten-level lessons in this art. To me, personal intent plays far more important role in such a relationship's success. Generosity on the side of the dominant; devotion and grace under defeat on the side of the submissive smooth the process, whatever outward form that communication takes.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 5:21:45 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		I was going to start this reply with "Maybe I'm naive..." but after reading some of the other replies, I guess I'm not.

This concept is what I would want and expect in a relationship. I don't want a safeword, I don't want to control what we do. If I trust him enough to be in the relationship, then I trust him enough to do what he wants with me. He'll know me well enough not to take me into situations that aren't good for me knowing that to do so could end what we share and I have to be willing to go outside my comfort zone if that's what makes him happy or risk losing him.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 5:33:20 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Sounds to me like you have your personal power base, concepts of "play," and dynamics of delegating authority in a rather confusing situation.


I appreciate you chiming in aldompdx and I understand that some of the things discussed here might not sit with you well. Making large sweeping statements about what is right or wrong however isn't going to make for a very productive discussion.

Try to read some of the responses from people who live this dynamic (without necessarily approving of the term it was given but rather the definition) with an open mind. Let me know if you come to the same conclusion. I don't see abuse being reflected in what Aileen, NuevaVida or dark are reporting nor do I feel anything but absolute love from Jeff (leadership), KnightofMists and Kana.

If you end up keeping your opinion of all this, that is your personal choice. Know however that within the realm of WIITWD, it is accepted by portion of the population that this is not abuse when both parties want this dynamic.

- LA




Wow. I never knew I was being abused. Who knew that abuse could make me so happy, content, stable, confident, etc. etc. etc.
I have been waiting my entire life for this relationship. I am hard wired to want to give control over to him. He is hard wired to want that control.
It shows up in little ways the more time we spend together. I don't even bother opening a menu anymore when we go out. He picks the food at home, so why not in a restaurant? He could walk through the door tonight after work, grab me by my hair and drag me to the basement and do whatever violent thing came over him. I may kick and scream the entire time, but you can bet when it was all over my body would be as close to his as possible and I'd have a very weepy, teary eyed smile on my face. And then I'd go get his dinner. And then we'd spend the evening annoying people on here or watching the Family Guy or editing photos, or going for a walk, or....

Why do people assume that because someone (me) is capable of giving up choices that they are idiots and will fall victim to some nasty psychopath? I am quite functional in life. I gave him control over me because he is just as functional, if not more so than me. He makes great choices and is successful in his lifelong relationships. Had he not been, the option of giving up control would have never entered the picture with him.

edited to add...these views are directed to Aldo, not LA.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 5/5/2010 5:35:21 AM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 5:36:42 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Why do people assume that because someone (me) is capable of giving up choices that they are idiots and will fall victim to some nasty psychopath?


Because sometimes, when other one's realities clash with another's paradigms, it makes them so uncomfortable that they need to oppose it.

It's kind of human nature and we all do it at times. We should strive to acknowledge that there are different mindsets, which isn't always easy of course.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/5/2010 5:37:10 AM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 6:16:02 AM   
ownedbyPF


Posts: 126
Joined: 2/18/2010
Status: offline 		Am i the only one who remembers back to the good old days where this term was the definiton of.... slave? Then people started deciding they liked the term slave because it was sexy and erotic and everything got confusing! Then we started seeing the term "no limits" slave in order to try to define the difference between this type of slave and the other (the one's who still retained the ability to consent to such and such an act..) But then that got all twisted! It turned into... what are you saying? You are more slavey than me? That you are a twue and i'm not just because i won't let him cane me?! Besides you wouldn't let him shoot you, so ther term isn't even valid! So now, here we are, with a whole new term trying to capture what was once simply known as.... slave. i'm sure this too will become all wrong! Am i the only one misses the simplicity of the "old days?"

Yes, LA, i've heard this term as of late. We do it and it is much like others have said. He has full authority over me and we communicate endlessly about everything in the world. He is fully aware of every "landmine" i possess. If there is something he wants me to do that might trip one, he takes the time and has the patience, to disarm it first. i think that's where communication is so important. And trust, faith, love, honesty, and all the rest that takes so much time to build.

i think sometimes those of us in a relationship like this make it sound so oversimplified.. i do whatever he wants, how he wants, when he wants, period. It's true, but we tend to neglect talking about how we got there. The time, communication, patience, and work it took to not only get there, but to stay there. The never ending responsibility of being honest, vulnerable and safe to express concerns, fears, hopes, desire and terror to one another. To not just say, this is a sticking point, but rather having the mutual commitment to work past it.

How long does it last? So far it has been three years and it's only become more... more loving, more wonderful, more amazing, fun and passionate! i hope the answer is a lifetime! i suspect the answer is, as long as you both continue working your side of the relationship.
~s

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:17:24 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		The term has never worked for me because it is so convoluted. Can't wrap my head around it. You either consent or you don't. Your consent may be in blanket form or it may come in a line item format. Yes means yes and no means no. If you consent to anything that I may do then you just consented. You might withdraw said consent at whatever time for whatever reason. You simply cannot do both simultaneously. You just can't.

Having said all that we have a relationship that essentially fits into the framework that is being alluded to here. We don't have a 24-7 M/s or D/s relationship. The D/s side of our relationship is a very physically oriented play dynamic. When we aren't knee deep in the hoopla we are just another couple having dinner or watching a movie. When we are knee deep in the hoopla she has but one decision to make - to play or not. The decision is always "play". Beyond that point she relinquishes all control to me. I decide what, when, how long, how hard and when things end. Period. It started with consent and it is based on consent. There is no non-consensual aspect of it even thought she sometimes endures things she does not enjoy one iota. Her fulfillment comes from the big picture and she trusts my judgment.

If there is one term that deserves being stricken from the bdsm vernacular it is consensual non consent. It makes "Safe, sane and consensual" seem downright cerebral by comparison.


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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 5:39:59 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		LadyAngelika,

I appreciate the tone of your reply. And, I respectfully offer further dissent.

I certainly accept that a great many people believe they have no choice, or otherwise deny their choice to withold choosing, and feel good about it.

However, "non-consensual consent" is simply an oxymoron, the purpose of which is to repress or deny a reality. In this context, that simple reality is the choice to delegate authority to choose. All the additional layers of helplesness are fantasy, which is not objective reality and can only be the perceiver's subjective alter-reality. It also involves the fantasy of living without any responsibility.

When a controller acts with empathy in a non-abusive manner, then the preferences, boundaries, and implicit choices of the surrendered person are being honored and respected.

Whan a controller acts without empathy in a sadistic and narcissistic manner, then the surrendered person chooses to remain involved and endure, or to leave.

Thus, there is implicit or passive consent in such circumstances when overt abuse is absent. That is, there is consent to relate, to interact. Remove that basic consent and choice, and there exists no relationship. Zero times anything remains zero. Thus the problem of a self cancelling oxymoron such as "consensual non-consent." It simply amounts to nothing but an excuse to repress or deny a different and real issue which affects real interrelating by real consent and choice.

It is like trying to say that a shadow is really the object which eclipses light. Yet, remove the light, and the shadow disappears while the real object remains. Similarly, the ego falsely associates external objects as one's source of love/fulfillment/happieness.

Except for situations which are abusive, like slave labor of children in India, or persons held captive against their will, I have yet to read anything here or hear from any person in an extremely polarized dynamic, where consent is truly and totally absent.

Quite simply for a given subject matter, if there IS consent, then there is NOT NON-consent. It is very simple logic.

As many others have eagerly pointed out, consent need not be explicit and affirmative, but can manifest as acquiescence -- the choice to not choose -- which itself is a choice to consent.



< Message edited by aldompdx -- 5/5/2010 5:44:44 PM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 6:51:22 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		You're really making this so much more complicated than it really is.
Who's on first?

Do people actually sit around contemplating the details of their relationship dynamics.
I don't waste brain power on that. I just enjoy the time we're together.
By that, I mean....I don't sit there discussing whether or not we have a consensual/non consensual dynamic.
We don't discuss rules. I don't remember ever doing this kind of negotiation in vanilla relationships.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 5/5/2010 6:53:57 PM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:24:48 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i think sometimes those of us in a relationship like this make it sound so oversimplified.. i do whatever he wants, how he wants, when he wants, period. It's true, but we tend to neglect talking about how we got there. The time, communication, patience, and work it took to not only get there, but to stay there. The never ending responsibility of being honest, vulnerable and safe to express concerns, fears, hopes, desire and terror to one another. To not just say, this is a sticking point, but rather having the mutual commitment to work past it.


Agreed, that is a really important point. Thank you for bringing it up.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:37:26 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		aldompdx, I read your post 3 times and I do get what you are saying. That said, I don't think you are understanding what the rest of us are, which is why you are coming to the conclusions you are.

In the hopes of bridging the understanding gap, let me offer a very simplified version of this dynamic.

You meet a woman, you talk a lot with her about what she likes, what you like, you exchange, you get to know a lot about one another, etc. She's a relatively stable woman, no major issues that are hindering her from living a normal life.

One day, a shift happens in your relationship where she tell you that she wants a deeper level of submission. She wants to feel that you really have total control over her, her deepest sentiments are "take me I'm yours, do with me what you will" and that's what she feels she needs. She would have to trust you beyond anything in order to get to that point. She offers herself to you.

Now you might not want this. It might not sit right with you. But another man might want this and if he loves her and takes her total submission and vows to do no harm to her all the while pushing their relationship to new bounds, then what is wrong with this? This is what they both want.

So as I said, ignore the term. I only brought it up because I heard the term and I was looking for reactions on it. So far, no one is really fond of it but many identify with it's definition to a certain degree.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:38:53 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Do people actually sit around contemplating the details of their relationship dynamics.


I do at times actually, but then I'm at the core a very analytical person.

But most of the time, when I'm with a partner, I'm enjoying our dynamic.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:45:31 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		It's more bdsm mumbo jumbo. There is no such thing.

It is every day life people. Someone puts there trust in you up until the time they no longer have trust in you or until you cross the border passed rational behavior into abuse.


Then you get to go to jail...........................................................Yay!!!!

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 7:55:12 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		Their cries reverberate from the dumpster: "I don't trust you anymore!!!"

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 8:01:28 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Domi & subtee, the reason why people try to define concept such as these is in the hopes of creating a framework for people to experiment and reduce the changes that one doesn't end up in the dumpster or in jail.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/5/2010 8:05:10 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.

Before entering in this dynamic, the bottom (or submissive, slave, etc) consents to relinquishing their right to consent to the top (or dominant, mistress/master, etc) who is therefore is in a position to have total control over what happens next.
This sums up my understanding of the dynamic pretty well....Ingrid Beelemare writes about this very dynamic.

Now on a personal note, I think that engaging in this type of dynamic requires having a very clear picture of the bottom's limits, soft & hard, fears and desires. It also requires being really in-tune with one another.
The sort of understasnding that can only be gained,IMO through a process of shared trust.

This dynamic appeals to me a great deal and I'd say that to date, without formally calling it C/NC (I only discovered the term recently), it's very much how I've been conducting my relationships over the years. But I'm wanting to reflect on this practice (is it a practice? a mindset? a dynamic?) further.

So my questions are the following:
  • Do you think this dynamic has to be limited to a moment, an evening, a scene?
  • No....as a matter of fact doesn't it work better when implemented as a lifestyle?
  • Do you think this dynamic can work over the course of a relationship? And if so, are there things that need to be put into place?
  • Speaking as the slave type....wouldn't having complete trust in Your Dom/me be the one essential ingrediant to making this both possible or desirable?
  • If you are in this kind of dynamic, how do you live it? What challenges have you had?
  • Haven't found it yet..so I can't answer this...but finding it would be like finding the "Golden ticket".....because this would mean I have everything I was seeking ;-)
  • Since I'm huge on communication, how does communication fit in? I have ideas but I'd like to hear more.
  • As with all relationships no matter the dynamic.....the higher the intensity...the deeper the commitment....the larger the need for reciprocal lanes of communication.


I truly hope this will be a fruitful, open-minded discussion.
I'm game.....
- LA


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