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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 5:19:14 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I truly hope this will be a fruitful, open-minded discussion.

I'm game.....



I'm glad! And thank you for your contribution :-)

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 5:26:47 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Do people actually sit around contemplating the details of their relationship dynamics.


He and I do in our house. I am extremely analytical and he enjoys talking about psychology, behavior and our relationship. For us, that is part of the enjoyment. Alandra on the other hand will often sit and read her book or do other things. For her, the discussions are not as fulfilling as they are for he and I.

For me, the point of coming to CM or any other board is to discuss how we do things in our family and what works for us. I also like reading how it works for other people. The discussions are what keep me coming back here.

Knight's Kyra




Thanks Kyra. I always figured CM was big enough for people to discuss what they were interested in. You'll rarely see me in Poll & Random Stupidity as to me, that isn't where I want to spend my time. Like you, I'm analytical and enjoy discussing such issues.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 5:30:40 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
"because there's no negotiating or boundaries or safewords or having to have some asinine conversation about consentual/nonconsentual because we we're on the same page as to what we want from the relationship as well as sharing common values and the desire to make it work."


I think you've actually identified the foundation required in this dynamic so that no one ends up in the dumpster with missing organs ;-)

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 5:35:32 AM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Damn I am working on it, don't rush a good beverage. . I love you. That's so fucked up...

I'm an A-Hole so I'm worried about your choice in men...

Move to Alaska with me?



I like a-holes and cold weather (maine) Hmmm. I don't like children though. Have any?


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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 5:45:05 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

LA,

I appreciate your point, and applaud your responsiveness in your thread. What I have described is quite consistenmt with what I hear you express. And apart from the terminology, we seem to "be on the same page."


Thank you. I think so as well. There are just a few details where we might not agree on terminology. But that's ok, that's where discussion helps our perceptions widen.

quote:

> She wants to feel that you really have total control over her
Exactly. The fantasy of just the feeling, rather than the reality of real and broad control, which is never really "total."


Then by that definition, everything is fantasy. I want to feel alive. I want to feel happy. I want to feel fulfilled. Etc. No?

quote:

Consider the control which is exercised over an employee. At an ultimate level there is consent to remain bound to the employment agreement, while at another level an employee does not have the discretion to freely choose many things. Oftentimes, it is government law and regulation which constricts that freedom for the social safety or good.


I actually don't try to exert control over my employees. I tend to want to lead them. It is a completely different mindset to me.

quote:

Sheeple usually have more real choices and range of responsibility than they believe, accept, or recognize. The fantasy of control most typically arises from a subconscious sense of helplessness or meekness.
See, the MILGRAM EXPERIMENT.


Oh I've studied the Milgram experiment quite a few times. I'm not quite sure how it applies in this discussion. I tend to date really smart men, school smarts and street smarts, with really big personalities. When they chose to enter into a similar dynamic with me, they aren't being sheeps. They are following their primal needs, urges, desires.

quote:

> She offers herself to you.
And that is the freedom of choice -- consent -- which I address. That consent goes to the essence of surrender -- the offering, rather than the taking. Such offering is from personal power that is maintained by ongoing self will, which is not relinquished, given away, or exchanged. It is that distinction between taking and receiving which a great many dominant people seem to confuse. Taking from somebody is not by their submission or surrender. Receiving their precious offering is.


On this we agree. I see it as part of this concept because I never saw this concept as a one way thing.

quote:

I have spent the time to elaborate upon this issue because too many people out there are predisposed to take, rather than humbly and respectfully receive. And, they create doublespeak to justify their taking.


You think? Perhaps. I don't think it's the majority, or maybe I would hope that it isn't. When a man offers up this kind of submission to me, I tend to be in awe of him and I make sure that I always keep his best interest at heart. I'll definitely take, but I always give back.

quote:

Also, don't forget about those submissive people who conditionally surrender in a manipulative bargain (exchange) of giving to actually get (taking).


That's a whole other thread! You should come to Ask A Mistress now and then, we have plenty of them ;-)

- LA



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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 7:10:31 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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Status: offline 		We do tend to enter these sort of relationships to get what we need, just like vanilla folk enter a relationship to get what they need. Perhaps to begin with its selfish. We want a certain type of looks and that acts a certain way and in these things we can be overly specific because at this early stage we can afford to be selfish but if the dynamic of the relationship is allowed to unfold fruitfully, our minds can merge and the journey can begin. What had once been so important to the individual, gradually becomes less important.
A loving and intimate exchange that has gone on long term consists of an awful lot of selflessness. I'm not talking compromise because compromise isn't something I really believe in, but the sculpting of two minds to intertwine together. The sculptor and the sculptress!

When I first met Steve I was very specific in what I wanted and he was very specific in what he wanted. I had hard limits and so did he. As the relationship unfolded those limits became less important to both of us. We didn't just talk to one another about these things but we both listened intently. Through communication he was able to recognize the child in me that I so adamantly guarded and I was able to recognize the lost boy in him. This isn't a shell coated communication but two minds being able to recognize something in each other that is so deep and so well hidden that its incredible that it was ever found. The finding of such treasure is the key that opens Pandoras box and allows and the NC journey begins in one anothers safe hands.

A young relationship for example is full of excitement and lust and often when that excitement and lust dwindles, so does the relationship because the only thing they have ever really shared is their sexual psyche.
Another example is elderly men that leave their wifes for a younger woman. They want to get back that lust and excitement that is long gone with their elderly wife. Instead of growing together and allowing a meeting of minds on so many different levels, they allowed the relationship to grow old.
Relationships survive when they are deeply shared and the understanding of one anothers minds accepted, embraced and cherished.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 8:50:16 AM   
SailingBum


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From: Sailin the stormy sea
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.



- LA


Your definition is just plain wrong.  Non consensual means don't even THINK about doing it!!!  If someone does something NC to me.  You will find them in ER with my boot buried in their ASS.  Nuff said.

BadOne


_____________________________

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 9:25:56 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		I get where your going with this now. I got stuck on the "Non-Consensual" part at first.

Those two things don't belong together for me(The Non and the Consensual). If she has consented initially..Everything is done from there. She knows me and trusts me after all right..?

For a person to come to you and say.."Do with me what you will!" If she does this in an all in effort towards me and the relationship..I'm sure gonna appreciate that and give her my all as well.

My personal take..It requires some awesome chemistry and willingness to commit on the deepest of levels between people in order to get to that point.




_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 10:13:50 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		I think its risky talking about NC. The kind of NC that we are talking about is consensual of course, its just different. Its a changed angle that has been accepted by both but surely that's consensual?
Power exchange where the submissive really needs to feel the victim and may need that word NC, is of course consenting to that power exchange. If he comes home every night and uses her butt and in return she feels used and humiliated, it is of course consensual but the mind has taken her to a place where she really needs to feel that she has no choice. That is just another depth of where some of us are prepared or need to go but its still consensual.
The nomadic Sheik who takes a young bride, rapes her on her wedding night before sticking her in the harem with all the other wives is C/NC, so long as she agreed with her father to do as she was told. That is a million miles away from the lifestyles we lead. We come here through choice and choice remains throughout our relationship. We can fall deeply into this and we can change directions many times but each and every choice we make is, or at least should be, with informed knowledge and informed consent.

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 2:27:18 PM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.

Before entering in this dynamic, the bottom (or submissive, slave, etc) consents to relinquishing their right to consent to the top (or dominant, mistress/master, etc) who is therefore is in a position to have total control over what happens next.



The question, though, is how "total control" is going to be maintained. A mistress and slave (for example) might agree that the mistress can do anything she wants to the slave, for the rest of their natural lives, and perhaps that establishes a kind of implied consent. The mistress presumably won't feel a need to ask "can I pierce your cock" before pulling down the slave's pants and breaking out the needle and disinfectant, for example, because the slave has already given away his right to protest or even necessarily to be consulted. However, he could still pull his pants back up and walk out the door, unless the mistress took the precaution of restraining him beforehand. And unless her precautions were truly on a heroic scale, he would have the option of walking away (or calling the police for rescue, etc.) sooner or later. In the long term, consent can always be withdrawn, although the price of withdrawing consent might be the end of the relationship. I think it's this limitation on the concept of "total control" that puts C/NC pretty much in the realm of fantasy, at least as far as long-term relationships in our current social and legal framework are concerned.

In the short term, however, I find the concept pretty hot. I've never quite had it happen, but I like the idea of being strapped down by a woman (someone I really, really trusted, obviously) and knowing that I wouldn't be getting up until she was through with me, no matter how much I might scream and struggle and beg her to stop. The straps and buckles would give her total control for those few hours. Perhaps the arrangement could even be extended for days or even a couple of weeks, given judicious use of chains, cages and/or muscular assistants. But the option to withdraw consent by walking away would still arise eventually.

The only way to get around that reality, I suppose, would be to bring in voluntary, legally binding slave contracts. I might consider voting for a party that wanted to establish such contracts (if I was satisfied that adequate safeguards were going to be in place to protect people from being coerced into them, etc.), and once they were established I might consider signing one for the right person or even the right slave-trading corporation. If you want a real C/NC dynamic, maybe you should be lobbying the government!





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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 2:44:10 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

Also, don't forget about those submissive people who conditionally surrender in a manipulative bargain (exchange) of giving to actually get (taking).

-- A.L.


isnt that what all relationships are about?   we enter them because we get what "we" need?  if those needs are not met for long enough,(days or weeks or years depending on the person), we withdraw our consent to be in that relationship.  this goes for vanilla and both sides of the slash of d/s, in my humble mind.

submission is as much a selfish thing as domination....it is done because, GASP, it makes the person doing it feel good.

this shit aint difficult, even an idiot like me can figure it out in 20 words or less.


There is a vast difference between what you're saying and what Aldompdx is saying.

I'm an old pro at manipulating men while letting them think they're in charge and getting exactly what I want out of the relationship. I've done this in almost every relationship I've been in. The results in this sort of relationship leaves me not liking who I am and not respecting the man who has blindly gone along with my manipulation.

I've been in two relationships in which I wouldn't have dared attempting to manipulate my partner. Giving without an agenda is very different then giving out of the sheer desire to give.


i do not see a difference.  whether you are manipulating to get what you want, or giving without an agenda, you are doing it because it gives you back something you need.  if you have the sheer desire  to give, then giving gets you what you want. that feeling that you gave.

not saying it is wrong, but it is all selfish.....to get what you (I, we) want to make us feel like we are living...

no one would stay in a relationship of any sort unless it gives them something they want....

it just is what it is.....

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 3:19:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.



- LA


Your definition is just plain wrong.  Non consensual means don't even THINK about doing it!!!  If someone does something NC to me.  You will find them in ER with my boot buried in their ASS.  Nuff said.

BadOne



Actually it's not my definition. It's the definition of Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play.

But thank you very much for taking the time to misunderstand this as well as the whole intent of the thread. Knee jerk alarmist reactions, albeit slightly annoying, are for the most part entertaining and make me snicker just a little.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 3:24:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I think its risky talking about NC. The kind of NC that we are talking about is consensual of course, its just different. Its a changed angle that has been accepted by both but surely that's consensual?


Many have said that the title pretty much sucks and I'll agree with that. But beyond sucking, I think you have a point here Maria that the title can actually lead to misinterpretation. And in the hands of a moron—and I'm sure there's a moron or two practising BDSM ;-)—this type of misinterpretation could be dangerous.

The thing I realise in this thread is for the most part, people get it and are living the definition of the concept. It is becoming abundantly clear to me now how badly named this concept is.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 3:47:04 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		Sure LA WhatFuckingEver Do yourself a favor and look up non consensual and then get back to me. Just because you or something you read says NC is something different does NOT make it so. Show me any "authoritative source" where NC means go ahead and do it I will print a retraction. I am NOT talking about some obscure web site you read it on.

BadOne

_____________________________

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 4:06:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake
someone I really, really trusted, obviously


What I find interesting in your accounts of short term play and long term dynamic is that you tell a story of something going wrong within a long term dynamic but mentioned that for a short term you would do this with someone you really, really trusted.

If I were a sub/slave, my mentality would be the absolute opposite. I would have really well outlined limits for short term play and work on developing a dynamic of trust where limits would be understood but their management would be left to the top because I knew the top had my best interest at heart.

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 4:07:52 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Sure LA WhatFuckingEver Do yourself a favor and look up non consensual and then get back to me. Just because you or something you read says NC is something different does NOT make it so. Show me any "authoritative source" where NC means go ahead and do it I will print a retraction. I am NOT talking about some obscure web site you read it on.

BadOne


Instead of being rude, why don't you take a moment and read through the thread with an open mind. Or am I asking too much?

- LA

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 9:03:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

For those who aren't familiar with Consensual/Non-Consensual (C/NC) play is, here is a definition based on my understanding of it.



- LA


Your definition is just plain wrong.  Non consensual means don't even THINK about doing it!!!  If someone does something NC to me.  You will find them in ER with my boot buried in their ASS.  Nuff said.

BadOne

Should the rest of us just ignore the consensual part of the equation.....as you have done ?

_____________________________

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 9:42:27 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
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Status: offline 		Once again the dynamic duo of sailingbum and Domidude join forces to combat evil.

LadyA my whole problem with this concept is that you are assuming that there are no lines or that responsible adults will not cross those lines if discussed. Or that a discussion some how absolves someone of certain responsibilities or maybe even liability.

There is no reason for the discussion. Inthat there is no such thang as c/nc.

You cross the line you get fucked....It's really simple.

Subsusie, "Domi you can do anything you want to me".... I can do anything until she objects. Then I face the ramifications


I really think it is a stupid conversation to get involved in. It makes no sense. I trust you up until the point that I no longer trust you.

Simple shit. We are trying to get through this thang as adults. Adults recognize they do have limitations which should be respected.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/6/2010 9:44:23 PM >

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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 11:36:29 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Now on a personal note, I think that engaging in this type of dynamic requires having a very clear picture of the bottom's limits, soft & hard, fears and desires. It also requires being really in-tune with one another.


To me ... this is the key point.

And it could only occur in a long term relationship ... in which absolute trust is totally established.

It would take a LONG TIME to establish that level of trust ... too.

Not something from a "hot fantasy"; or short term encounter.

While there MIGHT be one ... possibly two ... who frequently post here ...

that might have the POTENTIAL of developing such a relationship ...

the odds are so long, it is not even worth considering ... much less discussing.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Consensual/Non-Consensual Play - 5/6/2010 11:56:24 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		Oh gee I get it....my mind is closed!  Lemme break it down for ya LA.  I tell my kid not to run into the street < a NC act>  kid runs into street finds my boot buried in kidlet ass.  Kid asks for ice cream I say sure <consensual act> no issue with me.

I dont get whats so difficult to understand.  When I say no I mean NO!  I dont mean ask me later.  That does not mean at some point I wont change my mind, but that is a whole other conversation.

BTW real mature you dont agree with me and you start name calling.

domidong WTF what did i do to get paired up with the likes of you????  I want my money back

BadOne


_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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