RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 8:05:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


So those teachers and those angry mexican students were just being patriotic...   [8|]



I find it rather ridiculous that so-called patriotic people get upset when a bunch of snot nosed racist brats wanna make some sort of snarky-assed statement using Old Glory in ways that are disrespectful. Why not find something really important to get bent out of shape over?



I couldn't agree more julia


I have a friend that teaches school in Georgia (high school). On flag day they encouraged everyone to bring fags representing their heritage from all over the world. The American kids were instructed how the American flag was to be displayed. The American kids were not happy that they were not allowed to drape themselves in the flag, wear it like a skirt, etc, as other kids were able to do because their countries do have the rules against it.... I find this story a sign of how ignorant most Americans are in regard to their flag.

Mexicans are a proud patriotic people, it shames us not one teeny bit to honor and respect them on one day during the year, would we react this way if it were a Canadian holiday? There is no reason in the world to try to upstage Mexican Americans on a holiday that they enjoy, like we enjoy the 4th of July




Moonhead -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 8:22:56 AM)

You could just see that, couldn't you? If a bunch of Hispanic kids turned up at school on the 4th wearing mexican flags and singing la cucaracha they wouldn't get sent home, they'd get lynched.




juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 8:41:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You could just see that, couldn't you? If a bunch of Hispanic kids turned up at school on the 4th wearing mexican flags and singing la cucaracha they wouldn't get sent home, they'd get lynched.


Actually it depends on the place they do it....

In my apartment building my manager has parties for all the tenants several times a year,  and one of those parties is for Cinco de Mayo. There were Mexican flags hanging up on the walls and everything.... I enjoyed my margaritas and enchiladas and almost went to the park for more celebrations...

Geesh, sometimes ya gotta just decide to have some freaking fun... and those kids who were making a political statement, they need someone to pour them a margarita and they need to chill the fuck out




Moonhead -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 9:15:48 AM)

Good point.




tazzygirl -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 9:49:51 AM)

Can the government criminalize “misuse” of the American flag, acts which treat the flag “contemptuously?” In the case of Smith v. Goguen, the Supreme Court had to decide whether a Massachusetts teenager could be convicted for wearing a patch of the American flag on the seat of his pants. According to the Court, the Massachussets law against misusing the American flag was unconstitutionally vague.

Smith v. Goguen: Background
Goguen was seen by police wearing a small cloth version of the American flag on the seat of his pants. Goguen was not involved in any protests, demonstrations, or criminal conduct. The police later swore out a complaint against the teenager solely because of where and how he wore the flag.

Massachusetts banned “misuse” of the flag:

Whoever publicly mutilates, tramples upon, defaces or treats contemptuously the flag of the United States ... whether such flag is public or private property ... shall be punished by a fine of not less than ten nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both...
Goguen was convicted and sentenced to six months in prison. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court affirmed the conviction, rejecting Goguen’s claim that the law was unconstitutionally vague. A federal district and the 1st Circuit Court disagreed, overturning the conviction. The case went to the Supreme Court.



Smith v. Goguen: Decision
The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 that the law was unconstitutional, agreeing with lower federal courts that the law was too vague for not making it clear what conduct would be subject to criminal prosecution and what conduct would be left alone — the wording of the statute could prohibit non-ceremonial, non-reverential uses of the American flag. Obviously the police didn’t prosecute every non-ceremonial use of the flag — arrest and prosecution were selective because there was never any desire to “make criminal every informal use of the flag.”

Flag contempt statutes have been characterized as void for lack of notice on the theory that “[w]hat is contemptuous to one man may be a work of art to another.” ... As both courts below noted, casual treatment of the flag in many contexts has become a widespread contemporary phenomenon. Flag wearing in a day of relaxed clothing styles may be simply for adornment or a ploy to attract attention. It and many other current, careless uses of the flag nevertheless constitute unceremonial treatment that many people may view as contemptuous.
Powell implies they might have ruled differently if the case had occurred during an earlier time. Powell isn’t arguing that wearing the flag on the seat of one’s pants is inherently non-contemptuous, but rather that the current state of American culture is so diverse that what some see as contemptuous, others see very differently. This is a problem with bans on certain uses of the flag due to how others will react. What some regard as contempt or desecration, others will view differently — it’s a natural consequence of a diverse culture.

The Massachusetts statute ... makes it a crime if one “treats contemptuously” the flag of the United States... which, in ordinary understanding, is the expression of contempt for the flag.

In the case before us, as has been noted, the jury must have found that Goguen not only wore the flag on the seat of his pants but also that the act - and hence Goguen himself - was contemptuous of the flag. To convict on this basis is to convict not to protect the physical integrity or to protect against acts interfering with the proper use of the flag, but to punish for communicating ideas about the flag unacceptable to the controlling majority in the legislature.

Neither the United States nor any State may require any individual to salute or express favorable attitudes toward the flag. [emphasis added]
How a person treats a flag in public necessarily sends messages to others. If a person is forced to treat a flag with reverence, then they are forced to send messages of reverential and respectful attitudes towards the flag and government. This, however, the government cannot require.



Smith v. Goguen: Significance
The Goguen decision reinforces the principle that the government cannot command people to adopt or express particular ideas or attitudes. This decision is also important for contemporary debates over laws against flag burning because such laws are almost invariably based upon the premise that public handling of the flag should be respectful in nature and that any “desecration” of the flag should be banned because of the disrespectful attitude it expresses.


http://atheism.about.com/od/flagburningcourtcases/a/SmithGoguen.htm

Its not as clear as you wish it to be.




kittinSol -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 9:53:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Neither the United States nor any State may require any individual to salute or express favorable attitudes toward the flag. [emphasis added]



Finally, some logic and some common sense!




juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 10:06:11 AM)

quote:

Its not as clear as you wish it to be


I do not know how clear or unclear you think I believe it to be...

I find it rather pathetic that those who wave the flag the most are guilty of abusing it under the traditions that surround the flag.

Now if you think my observation is simpleminded in some way, well, that is your view.... personally I do not wave flags around, but if people are going to wave the flag around as a symbol of their patriotism they should have some decorum about it




mnottertail -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 10:17:41 AM)

Gods truth, I would much rather you wave your tits around, that was a very patriotic and moving experience for me.




thompsonx -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 10:22:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Gods truth, I would much rather you wave your tits around, that was a very patriotic and moving experience for me.


hawt-stuff is shakin' her tits around???
How come I never got the memo?
Anyone got pics?




mnottertail -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 10:23:53 AM)

nope, a fleeting moment.....but I gotta tell ya huntie, I fuckin near re-upped, it was that magnificent, and stirred my breast.




tazzygirl -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:08:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Its not as clear as you wish it to be


I do not know how clear or unclear you think I believe it to be...

I find it rather pathetic that those who wave the flag the most are guilty of abusing it under the traditions that surround the flag.

Now if you think my observation is simpleminded in some way, well, that is your view.... personally I do not wave flags around, but if people are going to wave the flag around as a symbol of their patriotism they should have some decorum about it



Yes, i am very patriotic. The flag stands for freedom... including freedom freedom of speech... part of that speech is the right to burn a flag in protest. whether you like it or not, it IS a protected right. As i showed, so is the wearing of clothes with the flag emblazed upon them... even the ass.

As much as you may not like it... as much as you may disagree... the many men and women that i know who have served have fought for that right. They dont have to agree with it, neither do you. But it would be nice for ou to acknowledge the right they have.




thompsonx -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:15:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nope, a fleeting moment.....but I gotta tell ya huntie, I fuckin near re-upped, it was that magnificent, and stirred my breast.

No one gives a shit about your breast....
We are trying to focus on julia's breast.[;)]




juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:25:57 AM)

quote:

Yes, i am very patriotic. The flag stands for freedom... including freedom freedom of speech... part of that speech is the right to burn a flag in protest. whether you like it or not, it IS a protected right. As i showed, so is the wearing of clothes with the flag emblazed upon them... even the ass.

As much as you may not like it... as much as you may disagree... the many men and women that i know who have served have fought for that right. They dont have to agree with it, neither do you. But it would be nice for ou to acknowledge the right they have.


Point to where I said people should not have the right to shit on the flag if they want?

My point, and I will reiterate it, is if your wearing the flag as a fashion statement just to stick it to some Mexicans that you hate, well people like me are going to point out that you're a fucking little hypocritical racist piece of shit... If you're going to purport to be a patriotic person and wave a flag as patriot street cred, well learn how it is done, otherwise you look like an asshole

And if the principal sends you home for wearing garb designed to incite violence, I say you fucking had it coming. It is no different from wearing gang colors and whining when you get sent home for that. If a bunch of Mexican kids were putting their flag above ours on the 4th of July as a way of saying "fuck you" to American kids, they should be sent home too... School isn't the place for that shit.




juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:27:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nope, a fleeting moment.....but I gotta tell ya huntie, I fuckin near re-upped, it was that magnificent, and stirred my breast.

No one gives a shit about your breast....
We are trying to focus on julia's breast.[;)]



I never actually brought the girls out, they were always covered (barely, but still)




tazzygirl -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:30:34 AM)

And tell me, julia, in all your wisdom. Exactly what HAS happened in that community for sending home a few students who were wearing flag t-shirts?

Is it all peaceful and quiet?

Did you honestly expect it to be?





juliaoceania -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 11:51:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And tell me, julia, in all your wisdom. Exactly what HAS happened in that community for sending home a few students who were wearing flag t-shirts?

Is it all peaceful and quiet?

Did you honestly expect it to be?




I expect school officials to do what they feel is necessary to keep peace at school. I do not think that the steps taken by the school were wrong. Those students say they were not making a political statement, well you know what? I do not believe that because it would not have made the news unless it was a political statement. How would you feel if violence had broken out as a result of those tshirts? We have no innate right to wear what we want to school, and I support school officials doing what they think needs to be done to keep things peaceful at school.

I still stand by what I said, if you are wearing the flag and think it makes you uber patriotic, you look like a stupid asshole to me, especially since in your uber patriotic frenzy you did not even bother to find out you're a disrespectful asshole. Plain and simple....

I think people who put flags on paper crap for the 4th are just as clueless, but at least they aren't waving the flag as a political statement of respect for it, they just wanna wipe their mouth on old glory at the family picnic.... I suppose I see burning the flag as a political statement just as silly, since one burns a flag to dispose of it...

People are just so funny






Moonhead -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 12:46:35 PM)

I always thought that was how the flag burning thing got started in the first place, to be honest: some hippy with a slightly overdeveloped sense of irony.
"Hey no man, don't rip it up. You're supposed to burn it..."




Loki45 -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 2:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
  • The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.


Rules evolve. Look at our own Olympics team. Their athletic uniforms have long been covered with the stars and stripes....as have the uniforms of many other countries' athletes.

Not to mention the fact that what you underlined doesn't really apply here. They weren't wearing costumes or uniforms. They were wearing T-shirts with an American flag on them. The original intent of those flag rules were to prevent the flag itself from being desecrated to make a clothing item, not to prevent it from being imprinted *on* a clothing item. When the flag was adopted by the U.S., it wasn't possible to make logos or imprints onto clothing in that manner.



Actually our Olympic teams are representing this country and are considered a patriotic organization...

I would never wear a flag without being entitled to

I would never fly a flag in bad weather

I would never leave a flag out over night

I wouldn't fly a flag that was faded, tattered and torn.... most people do these things to the American flag also, and it is likewise disrespectful to the flag. And NO, the way the flag should be treated hasn't changed, it is just that people lack respect these days



The rule I highlighted that you underlined still doesn't apply. The rule's intent was that the flag itself not be used as a garment. As with many thing set forth by our forefathers, the flag rule couldn't and didn't foresee that people would be able to draw or imprint images on clothing as it wasn't possible at the time.




SohCahToa -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 4:20:27 PM)

Someone better let Apollo Creed know that he is wearing illegal shorts.

and what about that America needs you bloke with the flag themed top hat?






thishereboi -> RE: American students sent home for wearing American flags (5/13/2010 5:01:23 PM)

quote:

a bunch of snot nosed racist brats


One of those snot nosed racist brats was 1/2 american 1/2 mexican. So tell me, which side does he hate?




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