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RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/7/2010 11:27:47 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

other than that we're both somewhat new to things. The constant feeling of having failed is a common complaint of hers, but I'm not sure how to get around that. I have to issue guidance and correction or what's the point, and positive reenforcement seems to go right over her head. Once she feels like a failure its all forgotten. Any insight into a better way to approach her is certainly appreciated.

Back. Please don't take offense, but I have a question. Is said positive reinforcement usually attached to a 'but'? Both my ex D and my current boss at work did/ do this habitually, and it really has a negative effect on me.

eg. I tell my boss that we had a record day. His reply is something along the lines of, "Wow, great job... but why didn't <insert something I was too busy having a record day to do> get done?" When he does this, the 'positive reinforcement' is completely negated by the criticism. It was the same with my ex. I would try my best to please him, and get, "Good girl! That was great, but next time <insert correction here>". Guidance and correction are fine, but if she has learned that even positive comments come with a 'but', it doesn't surprise me that she feels like she's failing you. Please note that I am simply speculating on why the positive things you say might not be taken the way you intend.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 5/7/2010 11:30:08 PM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 1:13:38 AM

wandersalone

Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

The adoption would be the reason that I haven't exited the relationship to this point and don't intend to for the forseeable future., so obviously I've made a value judgement there. That doesn't preclude working on the other issues though.

Addressing the suggestions of writing assignments and the other's point of view the stock answer she gives tends to be "I just want to get along.".

Kink aware Professionals

Just an aside.... I have had a lot of experience with people who do not get on well but stay together for the kids or have a child in the hopes the relationship will improve..... it doesn't and the kids often end up pretty screwed up having been brought up with parents who don't want to be together.

I am with Wyld on the positive reinforcement and ensuring it is solely focused on rewarding and praising positive behaviour and not a back-handed comment about the unwanted behaviours.

A few things from your profile - However, my situation is so ridiculous and bizarre that it wouldn't be actively seek to inflict it on anyone else. So friends or online are probably the limit while I perform a miracle in meatspace.

and Unfortunately, I'm honestly not all that experienced in the lifestyle due to some poor choices regarding who I bring into my house. Spilled milk and all that.

Are these comments about your current live-in? You mention poor choices. Did you notice these communication difficulties prior to deepening the relationship? Do you both have similar needs, wants and interests in bdsm and M/s?

When she says she just wants to get along do you question her more to find out what this actually means? Ask her to tell you how a day would look if you and her were "getting along". What words would she be saying, what would you be saying, what actions and activities would be happening etc etc etc. You may need to become more adept at questioning her in order to draw her out more. sometimes questions that are too broad can be overwhelming to think about hence the "I don't know" answers. Tell her that there is no right or wrong answer and prove that by not judging her replies. Let her see that it is ok to be open and vulnerable in front of you. Be open and vulnerable yourself.

What if things don't change? Will you be happy to remain in this relationship because of the planned adoption?

This may be more about you exploring your own needs and values and possibly accepting that bdsm will take a back seat to adopting a child as it may not be possible to have both in this relationship.

Having said all of this I am always extremely wary of giving suggestions based on one person's view of their relationship so take all I have said with a grain of salt please.

I wish you both well and hope that an amicable and workable resolution is found.

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 22

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 7:00:01 AM

UniqueRaven

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

i can sense your negative attitude towards your sub through the computer right now. Yes, most of the negativity comes from disappoinment in her, but it seems to me that if your "guidance and correction" is coming from that attitude, she could be right in feeling that you're putting her down all the time.

If i may suggest a way to fix this - move away from "guidance and correction" - and just make it simple for her to please you. For example, tell her that it would please you to have eggs for breakfast. Or for her to make you a drink, or fold the laundry, or give you a back massage. And then when she does that specific thing, praise her for it - without any "guidance and correction" attached. If it's a task you think she might do in a way you would prefer differently (such as water with no ice) then put that in the original request, not something after the fact....i.e. "it would please me to have a water with no ice" vs. her bringing you a water and you saying "thank you, but next time no ice." Do you see the difference?

There are two parts to positive reinforcement - one is yes, praise her for what she does right, but two is to make it easy for her to please you - and focus on that, instead of correcting her.

i hope this helps, and my best to you in the adoption and everything else.

_____________________________

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 23

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 7:16:52 AM

thishereboi

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I would try to find out why she was saying that. Do you find something to get angry about everyday? Communication goes both ways, but without it, it's going to be very hard to have a relationship that is healthy for both of you.

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 24

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 7:25:10 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

Well, at this point the situation has been going on for a LONG time, but other than that we're both somewhat new to things. The constant feeling of having failed is a common complaint of hers, but I'm not sure how to get around that. I have to issue guidance and correction or what's the point, and positive reenforcement seems to go right over her head. Once she feels like a failure its all forgotten. Any insight into a better way to approach her is certainly appreciated.

Do you feel you have to correct her because you are dominant or because she has done something wrong? Is this something you feel you have to do on a daily basis?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 25

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 8:10:46 AM

angelikaJ

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Joined: 6/22/2007
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FR
If she frequently feels like a failure then either something you are doing/not doing, something within her or a combination of both is amiss.

Whether or not you are able to effectively able to provide us with all of the relavent information, it is unlikely that we will be able to fix the places you are stuck.

At least 2 people mentioned kink aware professionals. Good suggestion, because no matter what new things you install (ie sound advice from here or elsewhere) it won't matter as long as the old data is faulty.

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Post #: 26

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 12:13:54 PM

subsfaith

Posts: 297
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

I find myself in the unenviable position of being involved with someone who professes a serious interest in 24/7 D/s or M/s life, but it doesn't really show at all. I'm not going to do the whole "not a real X" BS, but I'm having trouble setting context of the relationship due to what seems to be a serious dislike of communication on her part. Stressing the importance of setting boundaries and principles generally ends with an " I don't know." and attempts at guidance result in defensiveness and phrases like "You don't have to find something to be angry with me about every day!". The latter sort of comment pops up even while I'm using an even tone and am explaining how I'm feeling. Any advice aside from the expected "Get out!"?

My first question is, if she is not showing you serious interest, what to you would show a serious interest?

My second question related to "Stressing the importance of setting boundaries and principles generally ends with an " I don't know."" How does setting boundaries end with this? You are asking her a question... but that is not setting a boundary... this is confusing.

Another thought is that you are assuming she dislikes communication... why would you assume anything, you're not a mind-reader so it might be better not to chance it... ask her why she isn't communicating.

It sounds like you are both feeling a little precious, the fairground ride has started and you can't get off. You are trying to tell her how you feel, she is taking it as a personal attack. Visa versa. I know I have been there.

It is so easy to feel wronged or hard done to, and that stops you from looking outside yourself. How about you try and concentrate on each others feelings rather than on your own for a little while. It might ease the frustration you both have.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for your lady to get herself a mentor, another female sub for her to talk to.

(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 27

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 3:00:40 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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Hello UniqueRaven. I agree with toning things down and striving for simplicity in times of confusion or negative feedback feeding the spiral.

The one very important thing I would add is that ''what it is that we do'' is supposed to be fun! (or at least mildly joyous, yes?)

There are some ''uber mechanics'' who think they should be able to fix an aeroplane in midair, but most think you must make the unruly thing land first. Stopping the Ds or MS and stopping trying to dom a confused sub who is not getting any joy from the synergy is sometimes the smart thing to do. I'll bet the dom is not getting any joy either, so what is the point. Just going into vanilla mode for a few days and being nice to each other (civil, polite, respectful, just being pleasant) would bring the tension down enough for better communication. After this, starting up slow and simple as UniqueRaven rightly and wisely suggests should bring the all important confidence builder into the synergy. Ah yes, it may bring back the fun too! RL

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 28

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 4:56:57 PM

GraciousLady

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline

Instead of asking us for advise you may want to ask your self a few questions.

Why do I want to be in this relationship so badly I am willing to be:

A. Unhappy
B. Treated badly
C. Manipulated
D. Ignored
E. Not taken seriously
F. Frustrated
G. Accused of doing things you are not doing

And lastly as yourself: What is so good about this girl that I have lost all my sense.

(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 29

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/8/2010 5:21:13 PM

GraciousLady

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

You are correct. Honestly, I'm just communicating within a community here. I seriously doubt the "magic bullet" is forthcoming. Suffice it to say that she is good enough at talking the game that I'm far enough in that seperating is a legal matter that is not feasible at the moment, because it would interfere with an adoption proceeding. I do not believe that she has explicitly lied to me. She honestly believes she wants what she rails against continually unless she's afraid I'm leaving.

Related and possibly more useful question. Anyone know of a resource to find counselors that are versed in the lifestyle? Something tells me the garden variety kind aren't too schooled on alternative lifestyles.

So you want to stay in this relationship so you, she or both of you together can adopt a child? I'm so sorry but if this is the case it is just wrong on so many levels.

(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 30

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/9/2010 5:38:33 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I would really rethink the adoption. You aren't compatible, you have zero communication, yet you propose to stay married long enough to adopt at which point you will divorce? And is that really in the best interest of this child?

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(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 31

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/9/2010 6:29:38 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

The adoption would be the reason that I haven't exited the relationship to this point and don't intend to for the forseeable future., so obviously I've made a value judgement there. That doesn't preclude working on the other issues though.

Addressing the suggestions of writing assignments and the other's point of view the stock answer she gives tends to be "I just want to get along.".

none of my business of course - but youre in a relationship where you guys arenet communicating, youre eyeing up the back door as an option for the future and youre going ahead with the adoption of a child - hmmm, nice - personally i think youre priorities are up youre arse, but none of my business at all.

_____________________________

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 32

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/9/2010 9:49:24 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye
I find myself in the unenviable position of being involved with someone who professes a serious interest in 24/7 D/s or M/s life, but it doesn't really show at all. I'm not going to do the whole "not a real X" BS, but I'm having trouble setting context of the relationship due to what seems to be a serious dislike of communication on her part. Stressing the importance of setting boundaries and principles generally ends with an " I don't know." and attempts at guidance result in defensiveness and phrases like "You don't have to find something to be angry with me about every day!". The latter sort of comment pops up even while I'm using an even tone and am explaining how I'm feeling. Any advice aside from the expected "Get out!"?

I agree -- unenviable... especially considering your later posts.

With the understanding that I know almost nothing here, it sounds to me like yet another woman who is more in love with the fantasy of submission than the actual fact of it. In general, I note a great deal of romance involved with the idea. You can see it in pretty much any Harlequin romance story. Obviously, as a fantasy, submission has a great appeal for women in general (not to be confused with all women). From what your describing though, she is not actually a submissive personality.

On a much deeper level, there are significant relationship problems here. Generically, you state "I want to discuss something important" and then she blows you off with a "whatever" sort of comment. Honestly, that is a complete lack of respect... not respect in the funky way it's meant in BDSM-land, but real basic interpersonal respect.

On the attempts at guidance thing, I'm a bit more understanding. I certainly saw similar behaviors in Carol. There is at least some non-trivial segment of the sub population that uses such tactics as a defense. Carol used to be included in that grouping. We had a long talk about her use of "the emotional tailspin" being more of a debate tactic than a genuine response. We also talked seriously about the need for me to be able to give guidance in a constructive and healthy atmosphere. I particularly stressed the point that when I'm actually angry, I'm quite good at communicating that. She needn't read anything into guidance other than the fact that it's guidance -- simply my steering the ship, exactly as the job description says I must.

Sorry, no real silver bullets for you... just as you anticipated. Just my 2c worth which probably aren't actually even worth 2c.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 33

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/9/2010 10:15:57 PM

warlock1935

Posts: 66
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I really wonder what the actual situation is here, guys. So far we don't have any real information, just hints. For example, there's a suggestion that there's an adoption involved, which I find as wrong as can be IF it's an unhappy couple doing it, but we don't actually know that's the case; for all we know, it might be someone adopting his sub! I'd like the sender to give us some real details so we've got something to work with.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 34

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/9/2010 11:56:44 PM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

I find myself in the unenviable position of being involved with someone who professes a serious interest in 24/7 D/s or M/s life, but it doesn't really show at all. I'm not going to do the whole "not a real X" BS, but I'm having trouble setting context of the relationship due to what seems to be a serious dislike of communication on her part. Stressing the importance of setting boundaries and principles generally ends with an " I don't know." and attempts at guidance result in defensiveness and phrases like "You don't have to find something to be angry with me about every day!". The latter sort of comment pops up even while I'm using an even tone and am explaining how I'm feeling. Any advice aside from the expected "Get out!"?

Uh dude she talks to you just fine. The problem is your not fcking listening. I dont know is a reply. Perhaps you could man the fuck up and say "uh bitch I dont know aint happening! You will do as your told or be gone".

Yes I swear it's really that simple. You will then have your answer.

BadOne

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 35

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/10/2010 12:05:04 AM

wittynamehere

Posts: 759
Joined: 2/5/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye
I find myself in the unenviable position of being involved with someone who professes a ... serious dislike of communication. Any advice aside from the expected "Get out!"?

Since my advice would be exactly what you asked me not to give, I'll just edit your quote to make your situation more clear.

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(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 36

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/10/2010 6:28:10 AM

subangi

Posts: 544
Joined: 5/11/2008
Status: offline

I am no "pro" when it comes to relationships, but through my experience, the Dom for me has been one who raises my self esteem, and the only "failure" I feel is from an action or behavior, but not myself as a being, and a few words or punishment with the mindset of yearning to correct it puts me back in the game so to speak.
"i dont know" to me is a reply that is safe and cant stir up negative feedback.....but behind that phrase there is much to express but fear of what the response is usually what hinders it.
I do not envy Doms. It is alot of work. To care, nurture, and fullfill a subs needs takes alot of thought and communication. A sub to me is a reflection of their Dom. When I submit, I do so eagerly and willingly, and if I feel like i am just going through the motions or performing a type of role play, then it is not the "real" thing and time to get out. There are times I dont feel like doing something, but do it anyway because the foundation of the need to serve my Dom trumps the task. Sometimes going back to the basics as others have suggested is the key and slowly trying a different approach and mindset. If that doesnt work, then its time to hit the road.
And, bringing a child to a rocky relationship? All I think about that is ............duh.

(in reply to wittynamehere)

Post #: 37

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/10/2010 6:31:31 AM

persephonee

Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I would really rethink the adoption. You aren't compatible, you have zero communication, yet you propose to stay married long enough to adopt at which point you will divorce? And is that really in the best interest of this child?

This, time a million. Please.

_____________________________

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E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 38

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/10/2010 8:48:25 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnFlinchingEye

Honestly, that is my gut feeling (and head actually), but the situation is signifcantly more complicated than that. If I just had myself into a "gotta go" situation I wouldn't feel nearly as backed into a corner.

No matter how complex or complicated it appears to be... it is not changing your the feelings in your gut and head. You are holding on to a vain hope that somehow you will find a way through all the complexities... but you know the truth of it. It's not going to happen. When you decided you had enough.. you will make a choice that is consistent with your gut and head. Unfortunately you will not make that choice until you learn what you need to learn.

Just so you know... I been there... have the baggage to prove it. It was complex and was part of my own doing... which made it all the more difficult to get past. Lesson: You can't fix past mistakes by making new ones.

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to UnFlinchingEye)

Post #: 39

RE: Serious Communication Issues, advice appreciated - 5/10/2010 9:38:43 AM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I would really rethink the adoption. You aren't compatible, you have zero communication, yet you propose to stay married long enough to adopt at which point you will divorce? And is that really in the best interest of this child?

This, time a million. Please.

I have to absolutely agree with this!!

I don't have any direct answers on how to fix your relationship. The problem seems to be way deeper then what can be described or fixed by a few simple posts on a message board.
However, the logic of simple staying in a relationship so you can bring a child into a relationship you admit to being totally dysfunctional escapes me completely.

Having a child makes things a million times more complicated, and it seems that you have complications enough already, without adding another element -another human being- into the mix.

Even if you choose to stay with her at this point, the adoption should be totally off the table UNTIL you both have your issues with each other worked out.

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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(in reply to persephonee)

Post #: 40

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