RE: Democracy y/n?

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kdsub -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 3:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It has worked...yes really worked as no other system or country has in the past. With all its faults and warts it is the best we have come up with in our few millions of years of existence. Strive for something better sure but don't look down on a system that has giving you a life of freedom and the ability to complain about it. I love the smell of blind patriotism in the morning. Not patriotism...just a fact...if not show me. Butch

pyroaquatic -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 3:55:05 PM)
FR Pirates had a very effective democracy. When it was time to fight then everyone listened to the captain (for he had more battles and more experience. Outside of battle the Captain and the crew were equals and treated as such. That and the fact it is cost effective to by rum in bulk. Our Democratic process is really dictated by the electoral college. The popular vote means NOTHING. Yet we cast our vote regardless. If there is no point to it why do it? That is money that can be used for other things like the rehabilitation of American Addicts. In return of our inability to choose our our own President we really live in a state of perpetual anarchy. That is my opinion, however. Others may see it as something else but that is the point. Interpretation. quote: Well, to start we have a republic, not a democracy. That is intended to keep ignorant masses from doing whatever strikes their fancy, at least quickly. The 'ignorant masses' are going to do what they will anyway. No government can stop such a force simply because the agencies we pay to protect us does not have eyes and ears everywhere. 'Crime' slips through the cracks undetected. At times it is detected and we do nothing of the sort. Apathetic we run our busy lives on empty and worn for the sake of consumerism and instant gratification. If such a system worked perfectly I would not have to take Antidepressants or Antipsychotics. But it is not perfect and their is very little protection. What irks me the most is the American Government is fallible and they claim otherwise. I'll admit it all day long, I am fallible and subject to error and death. So is this Government. And all fall at the same rate once we reach terminal velocity. It would be nice to see what criticisms spring from this body of prose.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 3:55:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes I think it was Churchill who said something like, "Democracy is the worst form of government known to man, except for all the others." My own impression of the American political culture is that it is daft, barbarous, willfully stupid and rotten to the core. The road to reform would involve Americans being able to overcome their tribal instincts enough to see that the "us" and "them" isn't Democrats vs Republicans, it's kleptocrats (whichever party flag they fly) vs everybody else. I'd bet a dollar things will just keep getting worse. I agree, a public servant is supposed to serve the public good. What, exactly, the public good is, is debatable, but regardless the intent should be there. quote: That said, I don't see a better solution than to try to work within the structure of a democratic republic. The key is to instill some kind of respect and veneration for rational thought and intelligent discussion in as many people as possible. To some degree, this answer begs your question. You say "Do Americans deserve a democracy?" I answer "They do if they can start to take their obligations in a democracy more seriously." Candidly, I think this is the only solution. I think the American experiment is probably worth continuing, which means everybody who takes it seriously has an obligation to be reasonably informed and reasonably reasonable. Yes but how do we get to that point? Our public education system doesn't educate people to be citizens, it educates people to be workers. I've met people who think that not knowing something makes them cool. Discussions about citizenship are always focused on who has the 'right' to be a citizen, not what a citizen's responsibilities are. Jury duty is either an interruption to one's schedule that must be avoided, or a free lunch and a bit of pocket money. How does a country move to overcome the handicaps we have? Corporate lobbying, pundits on TV, a bare bones education system, no sense of obligation to the state. I think that's one serious advantage China has over us right now, they create a sense of obligation to the state, an ideal of what it means to be Chinese. Of course, they do so at a great cost to individuality...I can't say I believe it's worth it, but it works and that makes it interesting. quote: One more nod to America's venerable ghosts--it was Franklin (old, somewhat doddering, drooling from the corners of his mouth but still a genius) who caustically remarked to nobody in particular "So you have a Republic....if you can keep it." Kings always knew they had to fight to keep their thrones, the ones who didn't realize this were inclined to lose their head. I think it's harder for the individual citizen to see that he has to make an effort to be a good one. Unfortunately.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:00:44 PM)
quote: The OP holds up Napoleon as an exemplar because he "stabilized" France. She ignores the disaster that befell the nation from his dictatorship, much as saying Mussolini made the trains run on time but oh, too bad he wrecked havoc upon Italy. Which disaster? France would have been swallowed whole in the disorder after the revolution.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Gold- silver and platinum up today. Would you mind elaborating on what the fuck this has to do with the topic I posted?

kdsub -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:03:28 PM)
NorthernGent I think you will find the average ill-informed voter in the US, over time, gets it right more often than not. I trust the majority’s ability to see its mistakes and correct them...it may take a few years but we do. Looking back from afar...which is the only true way to judge, the US voters have elected many leaders far above the world average. In fact I would say they were very able and responsible given the power they inherited. I believe this system creates gifted leaders in its crucible of the American politics. Butch

DomYngBlk -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic FR Pirates had a very effective democracy. When it was time to fight then everyone listened to the captain (for he had more battles and more experience. Outside of battle the Captain and the crew were equals and treated as such. That and the fact it is cost effective to by rum in bulk. Our Democratic process is really dictated by the electoral college. The popular vote means NOTHING. Yet we cast our vote regardless. If there is no point to it why do it? That is money that can be used for other things like the rehabilitation of American Addicts. In return of our inability to choose our our own President we really live in a state of perpetual anarchy. That is my opinion, however. Others may see it as something else but that is the point. Interpretation. quote: Well, to start we have a republic, not a democracy. That is intended to keep ignorant masses from doing whatever strikes their fancy, at least quickly. The 'ignorant masses' are going to do what they will anyway. No government can stop such a force simply because the agencies we pay to protect us does not have eyes and ears everywhere. 'Crime' slips through the cracks undetected. At times it is detected and we do nothing of the sort. Apathetic we run our busy lives on empty and worn for the sake of consumerism and instant gratification. If such a system worked perfectly I would not have to take Antidepressants or Antipsychotics. But it is not perfect and their is very little protection. What irks me the most is the American Government is fallible and they claim otherwise. I'll admit it all day long, I am fallible and subject to error and death. So is this Government. And all fall at the same rate once we reach terminal velocity. It would be nice to see what criticisms spring from this body of prose. As you know the electoral college is nothing more than a way to even out the power of each constituent state. If we simply voted in a President based on popular vote then most of the country would be left in peril to the whims of New Yorkers and Californians and Texans. With the Electoral College people in outlying states such as Iowa or Montana can feel that they have input into the system. I can see of a fairer way of doing it that wouldn't disenfranchise people. Our push for materialism and/or instant gratification is a function of what our Gov't has put forth to us over the past few decades aided by the wall street banks. I too would appreciate some humility by Gov't. Just as I would love to see some humility from the Board Room.....Don't think it is going to happen soon.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:07:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub NorthernGent I think you will find the average ill-informed voter in the US, over time, gets it right more often than not. I trust the majority’s ability to see its mistakes and correct them...it may take a few years but we do. Looking back from afar...which is the only true way to judge, the US voters have elected many leaders far above the world average. In fact I would say they were very able and responsible given the power they inherited. I believe this system creates gifted leaders in its crucible of the American politics. Butch Not sure why it matters that we might vote in "average joe's" to office. Isn't that what we are about? It is only elitism that would tell us to run off to Harvard, Yale, etc etc...and find the "Talented" to lead us.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:09:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Have you been reading de Toucqeville.....he observed that the United States was destined to elect average leaders. Democracy can only possibly work where people exercise their stake in the nation which includes being involved in public affairs as opposed to watching the news every now and again with the express purpose of having ill-conceived notions reinforced. I'd agree with you - it's far from perfect. But then you'd have to weigh it up against the options - better to have the choice however ill-informed - or better to have no choice and hope and pray the state will have your best interests at heart - and as we know the state will decide what's in your interests in and lie to you where they deem it is in your interests - then surely the former is the better option of the two? Edited to add: and where you're arguing for the latter - then on what basis? social cohesion? and what would you lose? a whole lot of creativity I'd imagine. I would say that the government would be justified in lying to the people when it's a matter of national security, but I couldn't defend that position because it comes mostly from instinct. As far as the state deciding what's in my best interest, I think that's a farce that has been overplayed. The government isn't making decisions about what's in my best interest, they're making decisions about what is in the United States' best interest, at least in theory. I don't know what to think about that. Obviously, I don't like it, but not liking something doesn't mean it's not for the best. And if it were concretely proven that it was for the best...I still wouldn't know what to think about it. And no, I haven't read de Toucqueville...I know a bit about the man though, and maybe I should :P

kdsub -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:10:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub NorthernGent I think you will find the average ill-informed voter in the US, over time, gets it right more often than not. I trust the majority’s ability to see its mistakes and correct them...it may take a few years but we do. Looking back from afar...which is the only true way to judge, the US voters have elected many leaders far above the world average. In fact I would say they were very able and responsible given the power they inherited. I believe this system creates gifted leaders in its crucible of the American politics. Butch Not sure why it matters that we might vote in "average joe's" to office. Isn't that what we are about? It is only elitism that would tell us to run off to Harvard, Yale, etc etc...and find the "Talented" to lead us. We are all average until we step forward to lead...then it is up to others to judge us. Butch

DomYngBlk -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:11:31 PM)
Agreed

pyroaquatic -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:18:04 PM)
quote: If we simply voted in a President based on popular vote then most of the country would be left in peril to the whims of New Yorkers and Californians and Texans. Alas, this happens regardless of if we vote for it or not. Also, this country is in peril. Other than that I agree. The original reason for the electoral college was for the farmers. Now that a farm can be run by three people instead of twenty or thirty what is the point in having the electoral college? America was built upon the sweat of slaves and indentured servants. America shall end with the construction of robotic slaves. By making things more efficient and easy to become obsolete we displace workers that are trying to feed hungry wanting mouths.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:22:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 What would you replace it with? A theocracy of the religious right? Perhaps a true socialist government? No. quote: You cant make people vote. That is the problem, too many people complain about the government not doing what it is supposed to do and the complainers are not voting. After all why should they? If anything, my post was questioning people's right to vote, by wondering what the responsibility of a voter should be. quote: I vote because it is my duty as a citizen. The problem with Americans is that too many dont see that. They have the right to complain about something they are not willing to change. I would say the responsibility of a citizen is to make an informed vote, not just a vote. And you're right that too many don't see that. Maybe I have no right to talk, I'm not an activist, I'm not contributing to the solution in any meaningful way, and I don't even live in the US anymore even though I still consider it my home and likely always will. It just seems like such a disaster over there, it's like I'm sitting on my hands watching it rot. The 'United States' today doesn't seem very united, it seems fractured. Corporations are strong because the one thing that all Americans have in common is brand recognition. Both liberal commie pinkos in Cali and redneck right wingers in Arkansas want the country they believe in. What country is that?

kdsub -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:23:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk As you know the electoral college is nothing more than a way to even out the power of each constituent state. If we simply voted in a President based on popular vote then most of the country would be left in peril to the whims of New Yorkers and Californians and Texans. With the Electoral College people in outlying states such as Iowa or Montana can feel that they have input into the system. I can see of a fairer way of doing it that wouldn't disenfranchise people. Our push for materialism and/or instant gratification is a function of what our Gov't has put forth to us over the past few decades aided by the wall street banks. I too would appreciate some humility by Gov't. Just as I would love to see some humility from the Board Room.....Don't think it is going to happen soon. Many people have a hard time understanding the reason for the Electoral College and how wise it is to keep it…Well stated. Butch

DomYngBlk -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:31:16 PM)
I won't disagree but it doesn't have to end this way. We still are the masters of our own fate even if we don't realize it

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:36:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Not sure why it matters that we might vote in "average joe's" to office. Isn't that what we are about? It is only elitism that would tell us to run off to Harvard, Yale, etc etc...and find the "Talented" to lead us. No. It's the fact that the job carries a lot of power and responsibility, and the "average Joe" is neither educated nor experienced enough to handle it. Most jobs these days require specialization, and politics is no exception. I can't imagine anyone saying they'd prefer an average doctor over a brilliant one to perform their heart surgery. Why should they feel any different about the people who appoint Supreme Court justices?

DomYngBlk -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:47:23 PM)
And I don't believe we get the Brilliant ones for our surgeries do we? At least not in my income bracket. That stated there is nothing complicated about governance. Not complicated equations or tissues that need to be opened and kept away from one another or the person(country) will die. We all have the ability to understand them or else we wouldn't so eloquently put forward our ideas here on this space. Is Obama actually more talented than you or me?

jlf1961 -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 4:52:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella If anything, my post was questioning people's right to vote, by wondering what the responsibility of a voter should be. I would say the responsibility of a citizen is to make an informed vote, not just a vote. And you're right that too many don't see that. There was a book that addressed the people's right to vote, even citizenship. It was Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers. In the book, the only people who were citizens and had the right to vote were veterans, men and women who had served in the military. They did not get the right to vote until after their term of service was completed. The problem with that is obvious, only a few have the right to make the decisions for the majority. It would probably be better if schools taught civics and pushed the responsibility of the person to vote. The basic formula for determining whether someone will vote is: PB + D > C Here, P is the probability that an individual's vote will affect the outcome of an election, and B is the perceived benefit of that person's favored political party or candidate being elected. D originally stood for democracy or civic duty, but today represents any social or personal gratification an individual gets from voting. C is the time, effort, and financial cost involved in voting. Since P is virtually zero in most elections, PB is also near zero, and D is thus the most important element in motivating people to vote. For a person to vote, these factors must outweigh C.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 5:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk And I don't believe we get the Brilliant ones for our surgeries do we? At least not in my income bracket. That stated there is nothing complicated about governance. Not complicated equations or tissues that need to be opened and kept away from one another or the person(country) will die. We all have the ability to understand them or else we wouldn't so eloquently put forward our ideas here on this space. Is Obama actually more talented than you or me? I can't speak for you, but I can say without a doubt Obama is more qualified to be President than I am. He taught Constitutional Law. I've never even taken a class in it. He has experience in politics and activism, I studied politics at university before dropping out. He ran a brilliant election, and the ability to campaign, to endear yourself to those whose minds you wish to change, is a key skill for a politician...I start fights and people hate me. I disagree with you on how complicated governing is. Do you remember awhile back when Bush said that governing a country would be a lot easier if he were a dictator? He was right.

Elisabella -> RE: Democracy y/n? (5/11/2010 5:35:16 PM)
quote: It would probably be better if schools taught civics and pushed the responsibility of the person to vote. I agree. Just so long as they don't teach it on Cinco de Mayo, eh?

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