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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/12/2010 11:46:09 PM   
domiman


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Somehow, I doubt any pirates were killed.
I didn't look it up. But, if they actually were killed after the fact, then the penalty for piracy is death.
What did the USA give to the pirates it captured and tried in court?

The difference would be telling.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 3:22:00 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

This seems to be a calculated execution without trial.




Right. And the appropriate response from the rest of the civilized world to this statement to the pirates from the Russians, should be to let the yapping liberals scold them sternly, while rest of us flash the thumbs up on the side.

Good to see you doing your part!


I know, that's what I love about compassionate conservatism.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 4:09:32 AM   
Marini


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Here is a fact, I have not seen mentioned here.
At the end of the day, WHO the HELL is going to even attempt to prosecute
the Russians over this?
I mean WHO?  The pirate defense legal coalition?
Answer is: No one

 
Read this little ditty from the USNI naval institute.

Dealing with Pirates – Russia Makes them Walk the Plank | USNI Blog 

This goes down in history as "another interesting little pirarte story" matey's.
The story will be told 20 different ways, but at the end of the day, nothing is going
to be done to the Russians over this.
Remember, they died at sea matey's.

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/13/2010 4:13:44 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Caius)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 4:37:07 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

When our founding fathers sought redress from the crown and were dismissed they took up arms and went after the assets of the crown. We called our pirates "commerce raiders".
How is that functionally different?
From my post you are aware that I favor the rule of law...also from my post you are aware that I am not above civil disobediance if my issues are not addressed.


I would think its the difference between being a privateer and being a pirate.

Definition
Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, rape, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Piracy can also be committed against a ship, aircraft, persons, or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state, in fact piracy has been the first example of universal jurisdiction. Nevertheless today the international community is facing many problems in bringing pirates to justice.[1]
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A privateer or corsair used similar methods to a pirate, but acted while in possession of a commission or letter of marque from a government or monarch authorizing the capture of merchant ships belonging to an enemy nation. For example, the United States Constitution of 1787 specifically authorized Congress to issue letters of marque and reprisal. The letter of marque was recognized by international convention and meant that a privateer could not technically be charged with piracy while attacking the targets named in his commission. This nicety of law did not always save the individuals concerned, however, as whether one was considered a pirate or a legally operating privateer often depended on whose custody the individual found himself in—that of the country that had issued the commission, or that of the object of attack. Spanish authorities were known to execute foreign privateers with their letters of marque hung around their necks to emphasize Spain's rejection of such defenses. Furthermore, many privateers exceeded the bounds of their letters of marque by attacking nations with which their sovereign was at peace (Thomas Tew and William Kidd are notable examples), and thus made themselves liable to conviction for piracy. However, a letter of marque did provide some cover for such pirates, as plunder seized from neutral or friendly shipping could be passed off later as taken from enemy merchants.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
In modern times, ships and airplanes are hijacked for political reasons as well. The perpetrators of these acts could be described as pirates (for instance, the French for "plane hijacker" is pirate de l'air, literally "air pirate"), but in English are usually termed "hijackers". An example is the hijacking of the Italian civilian passenger ship Achille Lauro, which is generally regarded as an act of piracy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Law of nations
Piracy is of note in international law as it is commonly held to represent the earliest invocation of the concept of universal jurisdiction. The crime of piracy is considered a breach of jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm that states must uphold. Those committing thefts on the high seas, inhibiting trade, and endangering maritime communication are considered by sovereign states to be hostis humani generis (enemies of humanity).[101]

For a different opinion on Pirates as Hostis Humani Generis see Caninas, Osvaldo Peçanha. Modern Maritime Piracy: History, Present Situation and Challenges to International Law. Paper presented at the annual meeting of the ISA - ABRI JOINT INTERNATIONAL MEETING, Pontifical Catholic University, Rio de Janeiro Campus (PUC-Rio), Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, Jul 22, 2009

In the United States, criminal prosecution of piracy is authorized in the U.S. Constitution, Art. I Sec. 8 cl. 10:

The Congress shall have Power ... To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

In English admiralty law, piracy was defined as petit treason during the medieval period, and offenders were accordingly liable to be drawn and quartered on conviction. Piracy was redefined as a felony during the reign of Henry VIII. In either case, piracy cases were cognizable in the courts of the Lord High Admiral. English admiralty vice-admiralty judges emphasized that "neither Faith nor Oath is to be kept" with pirates; i.e. contracts with pirates and oaths sworn to them were not legally binding. Pirates were legally subject to summary execution by their captors if captured in battle. In practice, instances of summary justice and annulment of oaths and contracts involving pirates do not appear to have been common.

Since piracy often takes place outside the territorial waters of any state, the prosecution of pirates by sovereign states represents a complex legal situation. The prosecution of pirates on the high seas contravenes the conventional freedom of the high seas. However, because of universal jurisdiction, action can be taken against pirates without objection from the flag state of the pirate vessel. This represents an exception to the principle extra territorium jus dicenti impune non paretur (the judgment of one who is exceeding his territorial jurisdiction may be disobeyed with impunity).[102]

In 2008 the British Foreign Office advised the Royal Navy not to detain pirates of certain nationalities as they might be able to claim asylum in Britain under British human rights legislation, if their national laws included execution, or mutilation as a judicial punishment for crimes committed as pirates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy

Just a few snippets from this article.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 7:58:30 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Something I have noticed in my short life.
No one likes to admit that they made a mistake about killing someone.



Why do you think it was a mistake to kill the pirates?

It seems like it would be fairly effective, but I can't say what the response will be.




Perhaps if you were to act on my initial post you would have the answer to the question you ask.
You do not seem too lazy or busy to try to needle me into spoon feeding you.
If I give you the data then you will disagree and say I am wrong the data is wrong or skewed.
If you go and look it up yourself then you can disagree with the source.
Suit yourself...self imposed ignorance is it's own reward.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 8:06:43 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

quote:

When our founding fathers sought redress from the crown and were dismissed they took up arms and went after the assets of the crown. We called our pirates "commerce raiders".
How is that functionally different?
From my post you are aware that I favor the rule of law...also from my post you are aware that I am not above civil disobediance if my issues are not addressed.

I would think its the difference between being a privateer and being a pirate.


My question was and is how is that "functionally" different?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 11:13:41 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

Putting the question of whether the Russian military was justified in these executions and what our personal gut reactions are to that question for the moment, what is the harm in stepping back a moment and trying to gain some perspective?   And for those who, like Panda, ask "What does it matter what their reasons were?", the reasons are multi-fold.  Aside from the fact that true empathy (a powerful tool in the human perceptive arsenal) does not proceed until you have exhaustively studied a person's motivations, the study itself might present to you better options for resolving the problem than "eye for an eye", however viscerally pleasing that approach may be to us in certain circumstances. It may, in rare cases, even cause you to consider that you've been on the wrong side of an issue.  The ability to re-evaluate our positions is the only thing which keeps us from becoming puppets to the increasing number of forces in the world that would prey on our emotions and deep-seated predispositions.  To make blanket statements that "the particulars couldn't possibly matter" isn't just irrational, it often amounts to willful ignorance for the sake of convenience (not meant as a dig at Panda, rather a general commentary on this position).


I don't disagree with the gist of your post, but I think you're misunderstanding what a lot of us are saying.

We seem to be having two separate discussions here. All I'm talking about is whether or not it is an appropriate measure to kill pirates who are caught in the act, and I think everyone else on my side of the debate is focusing primarily on the same issue. I don't think there's a single person in this thread who seriously believes the solution to the overall problem is simply to kill all the pirates, and I haven't seen anyone suggest that.

If you and Thompson are inferring that we think this would be an overarching strategic solution to the problem of piracy, that's probably where the communication is breaking down. Of course we don't think that. All I have ever said is that when you catch a pirate in the act of pirating, the reasons that he decided to take up pirating have absolutely no relevance at that particular moment. The larger issue of what drives them to piracy and how to address those root causes in the long term is a separate issue, and a separate discussion - one which I have not even bothered trying to address in this thread, because that's not what the thread is about.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius
Now, if I can speak to the specifics of this case, and still putting aside moral considerations, there are legal concerns here.  Maritime law may be rather vague in terms of who has authority in such a circumstance, one thing this ambiguity does not do is grant states the right to summary executions.  The many human rights treaties to which most modern states belong supersede here and quite clearly prohibit such behaviour.  And thompson is right on another issue -- if we don't have principles when they are painfully inconvenient or even harmful to our cause, we don't have principles at all.  Where the law is not applied equally to all it ceases to be something that elevates man and that provides him with stability and meaning for his actions and becomes just another socio-political contrivance.


"Rather vague" to the point of practically being non-existent, and you can't apply a law that doesn't exist. Until someone writes an internationally recognized law on the disposition of pirates, I'm quite comfortable with individual nations taking  it upon themselves to resolve the cases in accordance with their own legal system when a vessel flagged in their country is  attacked by pirates.

Just as the Russians did in this particular matter. They decided that their legal system was not the appropriate venue for resolving this case, so they decided to release the pirates and let them go home. They even loaned them a boat. If it turned out that the boat had a leak in it, well... I guess that was just a bad day to be a pirate. I lay awake crying all night when I heard about it, but I'm over it now.


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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 11:22:28 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

quote:

When our founding fathers sought redress from the crown and were dismissed they took up arms and went after the assets of the crown. We called our pirates "commerce raiders".
How is that functionally different?
From my post you are aware that I favor the rule of law...also from my post you are aware that I am not above civil disobediance if my issues are not addressed.

I would think its the difference between being a privateer and being a pirate.


My question was and is how is that "functionally" different?


Its the difference between an individual attacking and a government attacking. One has no support, the other has the support of its government. Priacy is no different than hijacking a plane. Are you now going to condone that action as well?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 3:45:22 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps if you were to act on my initial post you would have the answer to the question you ask.
You do not seem too lazy or busy to try to needle me into spoon feeding you.
If I give you the data then you will disagree and say I am wrong the data is wrong or skewed.
If you go and look it up yourself then you can disagree with the source.
Suit yourself...self imposed ignorance is it's own reward.



I have a feeling I'd be less likely to question the validity of data you presented and more likely to disagree with your interpretation of it.

That being said, I'm not sure what data you're even referencing. Poverty in Somalia? A particular political situation? If you don't want to spoon feed me, that's fine, but you've questioned multiple times why nobody has responded to your post, but I'm not even sure where you were going with that post.

To answer your question, why do the pirates become pirates, I'd say the most obvious answer is because it pays well.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 3:50:27 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its the difference between an individual attacking and a government attacking. One has no support, the other has the support of its government. Priacy is no different than hijacking a plane. Are you now going to condone that action as well?


I personally wouldn't care if plane hijackers were agents of al-Qaeda or official agents of the Taliban government, aside from the question of who to completely decimate after shooting them in the face.

There is a quote, "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means," and once it reaches that point, I don't believe it's prudent to restrict your response to diplomacy.

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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 3:58:13 PM   
SohCahToa


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"All war represents a failure of diplomacy."

Tony Benn

I like this saying better than the "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means.", which to me seems utter bollocks as nobody ever taught me that politics involved killing people if they don't agree with you.


< Message edited by SohCahToa -- 5/13/2010 4:04:13 PM >


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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 4:04:40 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa

"All war represents a failure of diplomacy."

Tony Benn


Which is why once it starts, you can't fight it with failed diplomacy

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RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 4:06:40 PM   
SohCahToa


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I don't know what people think they are fighting a lot of the time.

There seems to be a lot of mission creep related to these things.


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- Pax vobiscum -

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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 6:56:20 PM   
thompsonx


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My question was and is how is that "functionally" different?


Its the difference between an individual attacking and a government attacking. One has no support, the other has the support of its government. Priacy is no different than hijacking a plane. Are you now going to condone that action as well?


Perhaps it might be helpful if you were to look up the word functionally.
Please show me where I have suggested anyone condon a mother fucking thing...where do you get this shit?
All I fucking asked is why are these pirates pirates?
So far only two people have bothered to even look and you are not one of them.
You are more interested in looking up definitions and picking fly shit out of pepper than actually involving yourself in a discussion.
Please, either lead follow or get the fuck out of the way.



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 7:14:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps if you were to act on my initial post you would have the answer to the question you ask.
You do not seem too lazy or busy to try to needle me into spoon feeding you.
If I give you the data then you will disagree and say I am wrong the data is wrong or skewed.
If you go and look it up yourself then you can disagree with the source.
Suit yourself...self imposed ignorance is it's own reward.



I have a feeling I'd be less likely to question the validity of data you presented and more likely to disagree with your interpretation of it.

Yet you refuse to educate yourself...why?

That being said, I'm not sure what data you're even referencing. Poverty in Somalia? A particular political situation? If you don't want to spoon feed me, that's fine, but you've questioned multiple times why nobody has responded to your post, but I'm not even sure where you were going with that post.

To answer your question, why do the pirates become pirates, I'd say the most obvious answer is because it pays well.


Perhaps that is because that is what you want to believe.
I am not going to do your homework.
If you are content with your interpretation then please continue.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 7:42:28 PM   
servantforuse


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The Ruskies did just what we did. Shot them. Our Navy seals took out 3 of 4 in the blink of an eye. I'm not sure if they were read their miranda rigts or not.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 8:00:31 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps that is because that is what you want to believe.
I am not going to do your homework.
If you are content with your interpretation then please continue.


Seriously, I don't know what data you're referring to. I'm not going to run a google search of "why do pirates become pirates" - if you're referencing something specific, such as economic or political factors involved, yeah I'll look it up, but I'm not going to fuck around answering a "why" question when you could easily tell me the "what" to use as a search term.

Anyway it's completely possible to have sympathy for someone and still want to take them out.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 8:40:54 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The Ruskies did just what we did. Shot them. Our Navy seals took out 3 of 4 in the blink of an eye. I'm not sure if they were read their miranda rigts or not.



I am sure you have a point...what is it?

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 8:54:36 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps that is because that is what you want to believe.
I am not going to do your homework.
If you are content with your interpretation then please continue.



quote:

Seriously, I don't know what data you're referring to. I'm not going to run a google search of "why do pirates become pirates" - if you're referencing something specific, such as economic or political factors involved, yeah I'll look it up, but I'm not going to fuck around answering a "why" question when you could easily tell me the "what" to use as a search term.

Anyway it's completely possible to have sympathy for someone and still want to take them out.


Let me see if I can be a little more specific.
I do not care what you think.
If you are too fucking lazy to look something up then believe what you want.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" b... - 5/13/2010 9:01:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Back in the 1980s when the Lebanese were kidnapping people and holding them for ransom, they picked up a few Russians. Shortly thereafter several of the Lebanese involved were found dead with their cock and balls sewn into their mouths.

Nobody kidnapped any more Russians.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 100
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