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Caius -> RE: 10 Captured Somali pirates "found dead" by Russians (5/14/2010 12:19:51 AM)
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No, I understand where you're coming from. But I was trying to be as explicit as possible that I was not trying to address (or even in any way impart my own position on) whether or not those actions, on the part of either side really, were justified or well-advised. I was commenting solely on the very narrow issue of the idea behind statements along the lines of "It can't possibly matter what their motivations are", the likes of which were stated repeatedly in response to thompson's request. That and only that was the impetus for my own post; as needlessly over-confrontational as he can be, I felt thompson had a point in questioning that kind of blanket statement. Believe me, he's about the last person whose aid I am eager to come to and don't mistake my supporting his argument on that one issue as my casting my lot with him in general on this subject, but I felt that it was a good point that deserved some reiteration...you know by someone who doesn't fly off the handle whenever they feel they are in the least way being questioned or disparaged.
Now, don't get me wrong, I very seriously doubt that you or anyone really meant to imply that there was literally nothing to be gained from asking that question -- you were surely just exaggerating for effect. You meant, I assume, that "There's nothing in what I know of their grievances and desperate situation that goes so far as to cast them in my eyes as victims to the degree that I would object with the Russians taking this action to protect their own interests and people." I get that. I just don't like the ambiguous language of a blanket statement of the type that was being employed, not in a conversation of this nature. I'm not losing any sleep over the loss of these fellows either, I tried to make that clear as well, but neither do I think the manner of their deaths is something that should be glossed over. They paid the price for their actions, I don't see the need to dehumanize them after the fact.
thompson has spoken occasionally here about their grievances. I am utterly uninterested in engaging in that debate, primarily because language of that nature tends to bring everyone to the table loaded with their prejudices concerning the hierarchy of victimhood for a given situation. But he's also trying to point out that when someone is backed into a corner and desperate enough they can be driven to just about any action and that it's something akin to hypocrisy if we ignore such a situation and then bemoan the inevitable results when they occur. Once again, let me emphasize that I am not saying whether, in the final analysis, I find that justification relevant to the current circumstances. I am saying only that we must approach any such situation with an open mind regarding causal influences and that thus broad and sweeping statements about one side's motivations "not mattering in the least" can only be viewed as obstructive to the process of resolving, an as efficient a manner possible, the issue that brought our attention to the broader situation in the first place. That's really all I was trying to address from the start -- not the greater substantive issues of this even, but just a choice of language that dehumanizes one side or dismisses their motivations as irrelevant before the real debate even proceeds.
Now, speaking to your response to my little legal addendum, it really doesn't matter whether the nature of maritime law is "vague" or "non-existent" in regard to such matters; Russia is a signatory to many human rights conventions which specifically preclude such actions, no matter where their military may be operating. We could be talking about space pirates and, with regard to the law, these restrictions still apply. And let's all be perfectly honest about one thing -- these men were not simply cast afloat with limited resources and a faulty raft. They were executed, probably in a gruesome fashion, and the raft is simply a cover, or perhaps the method for, that execution. We all -- or at least anyone with a fully functional prefrontal cortex -- knew exactly what had happened to these pirates when we heard of the initial Russian claim that they had released the pirates because it was too much of a legal headache to figure out how to properly punish them. Whether we agreed with the idea of executing these men without trial or oppose it, we all knew it was just a matter of time before this 'accident' was announced.
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