RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights?

RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 6:29:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy So the govt can give me more rights then my creator? I doubt it. Which of course is not what I said. But while we're on.....why don't you give us an example of a right you have that is 'unalienable'.

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 6:32:38 AM)
to be an idiot?

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 6:44:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy So the govt can give me more rights then my creator? I doubt it. Which of course is not what I said. But while we're on.....why don't you give us an example of a right you have that is 'unalienable'. gent do you know what unalienabe means?

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 6:51:01 AM)
He does and thats why he is asking about an example. The reasoning that was expoused in the decision behind our leaving the umbrella of England from the Declaration of Independence does not have the effect of law, itself.

pahunkboy -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 6:57:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy So the govt can give me more rights then my creator? I doubt it. Which of course is not what I said. But while we're on.....why don't you give us an example of a right you have that is 'unalienable'. God gave me life. The government did not.

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:06:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail He does and thats why he is asking about an example. The reasoning that was expoused in the decision behind our leaving the umbrella of England from the Declaration of Independence does not have the effect of law, itself. so you believe rignts are not grounded in law? or the reasoning for the DOI is invalidates it or what assumption are we supposed to presume from that? or that consent is not required? I am sure there are a few more presumptions that one could pull from unqualified statement

pahunkboy -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:11:01 AM)
Hey RO, did the government give you your life? Or did god? Which gave you more?

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:12:38 AM)
no, and I said, intimated, alluded, referenced, intoned, espoused, verbalized, or otherwise meant any such a thing.

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:14:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Hey RO, did the government give you your life? Or did god? Which gave you more? If god can be called to the witness stand, that has some merit. Otherwise all you got is your pud in your hands.

pahunkboy -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:18:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Hey RO, did the government give you your life? Or did god? Which gave you more? If god can be called to the witness stand, that has some merit. Otherwise all you got is your pud in your hands. Did the government create you? Or did a higher power? It is not too late to repent.

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:21:15 AM)
neither, and it is not to late to commit yourself to an insane asylum, or take your meds.

NorthernGent -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:42:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy So the govt can give me more rights then my creator? I doubt it. Which of course is not what I said. But while we're on.....why don't you give us an example of a right you have that is 'unalienable'. God gave me life. The government did not. Of coure the government did not give you life...... But interestingly.....the humanists who penned the American Declaration of Independence were steeped in the same principles as the French revolutionaries.....who did in fact ride roughshod over the 'right' to 'life/liberty/happiness'....for those who did not agree with them. I imagine you're suggesting that unalienable rights are not vulnerable to the incursions of the state....but surely history tells you otherwise? Where 'rights' can be violated.....as life and liberty often are....then how can they be unalienable? And as your pursuit of liberty and happiness can have a detrimental effect on someone else's liberty and happiness......then how do we all hold these unalienable rights afforded by 'the creator'? And even more to the point.....as happiness and liberty are abstract notions whose meaning differs from person to person...then you're left with an argument that you're free to chase your definition of 'liberty' and 'happiness' which......to coin a phrase....self-evidently doesn't hold true.

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:49:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Hey RO, did the government give you your life? Or did god? Which gave you more? If god can be called to the witness stand, that has some merit. Otherwise all you got is your pud in your hands. for what to prove he (hunk), is above the government he created?

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 7:53:49 AM)
that his creator has given him unalienable rights, that exceed our law and constitution. You sure don't follow along in even the simplest of conversations very well do you?

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:06:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail that his creator has given him unalienable rights, that exceed our law and constitution. You sure don't follow along in even the simplest of conversations very well do you? Unlike lucky I prefer to have discussions with terms identified, not wallowing in the mystical goo.... That and since most people out here do not know the meaning of what they say is often entirely different in law than in common usage I need to identify your intent when its not crystal clear and it rare your crypto posts are ever clear much less crystal. That said you just made a claim that rights are limited by the constitution.

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:09:33 AM)
Modified: I just made a claim that an Americans rights are limited by the constitution and the law that surrounds it. You Fuckin Sie A I did, Real.

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:24:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Of course the government did not give you life...... But interestingly.....the humanists who penned the American Declaration of Independence were steeped in the same principles as the French revolutionaries.....who did in fact ride roughshod over the 'right' to 'life/liberty/happiness'....for those who did not agree with them. I imagine you're suggesting that unalienable rights are not vulnerable to the incursions of the state....but surely history tells you otherwise? Where 'rights' can be violated.....as life and liberty often are....then how can they be unalienable? And as your pursuit of liberty and happiness can have a detrimental effect on someone else's liberty and happiness......then how do we all hold these unalienable rights afforded by 'the creator'? And even more to the point.....as happiness and liberty are abstract notions whose meaning differs from person to person...then you're left with an argument that you're free to chase your definition of 'liberty' and 'happiness' which......to coin a phrase....self-evidently doesn't hold true. Gent they were British Esquires whose purpose was to limit the abuses by the monarchy that created the disagreements in the first place. Because you are under the authority of the monarchy you do not have nor can you have "exercisable" unalienable rights as you are the queens chattel. Regardless of the show they put on in parliment etc etc etc. Tough pill to swallow for the educated in todays world. If you have land and you posted no trespassing on that land it is only a notice to the public of a condition that will arise and a contract they will enter into with you should they walk upon your land. Now if they walk upon your land after notice was given they now are liable to the conditions of the contract and you sue in tort. Same thing with "unalienable rights". Its not a guarantee that someone or thing will not violate those rights but notice that either you or someone else has the authority to smoke your butt and take everything you got through an action "in" law if you transgress the right. Your unalienable rights stop at the next persons nose where their unalienable rights begin, and unalienable rights do not give you the authority to stomp on someone elses unalienable rights. So what is "a detrimental effect"?

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:28:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Modified: I just made a claim that an Americans rights are limited by the constitution and the law that surrounds it. You Fuckin Sie A I did, Real. Ok so you believe that Americans rights are limited by the constitution. (which is what I said but ok) What about Americans who are not a party to the contract or dont they exist? Or are we under a monarchy that can claim us as chattel and part of the contract because we were born in one of the several states?

mnottertail -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:31:08 AM)
no, americans not party to the contract do not exist. (not even native americans, or if you prefer american indians) sure they have other modifications to the law, but are still overall restricted by it. no, to the monarchy and chattel.

Real0ne -> RE: Democracy or Republic -- Which Gives Gays More Rights? (5/15/2010 8:35:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail no, americans not party to the contract do not exist. (not even native americans, or if you prefer american indians) sure they have other modifications to the law, but are still overall restricted by it. no, to the monarchy and chattel. That double talk, So anyone who is born on this soil as in one of the 50, is under the constitution. yes or no. you just said it both ways and it cant be both wayss.

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