RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you?

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 2:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I notice you didn't respond to Elisabella, I thought she put the issue rather well. As much as Yahweh's followers want to steal credit on his behalf for everything under (and including) the sun, it's completely undeserved. We are talking about concepts that exist outside of Christianity and have existed since before Yahweh was even invented. Your deity doesn't deserve credit for the secular philosophies and moralities on how we should treat each other and I'm not even sure they are equivalent. I think we may be talking about apples and oranges here, in case you haven't noticed our secular positions tend to be a bit different then their popular Christian equivalents: I read Elisabella. She put a "FR" at the beginning of her post, so she was talking to the thread, not only to me. And my interpretation of what she said was that we were on the same side of the discussion. She can, of course clarify if she wishes. I've been known to be wrong, or not fully grasp the significance of every comment. In response to the rest of your post ... Your words reveal the hatred and animosity towards the Christian religion quite openly, just as Panda's have throughout this thread. Since you believe that your belief system is confirmed and validated by science, this points out to me that you harbor the very antithesis of what "science" is supposed to be about: a open, inquiring mind. Perhaps one day, you may overcome that deficiency and come to understand where your anger and hatred comes from. Then, you may have an opportunity to appreciate what purpose religious teachings hold. Best of luck, till then. Firm

rulemylife -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 2:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I notice you didn't respond to Elisabella, I thought she put the issue rather well. As much as Yahweh's followers want to steal credit on his behalf for everything under (and including) the sun, it's completely undeserved. We are talking about concepts that exist outside of Christianity and have existed since before Yahweh was even invented. Your deity doesn't deserve credit for the secular philosophies and moralities on how we should treat each other and I'm not even sure they are equivalent. I think we may be talking about apples and oranges here, in case you haven't noticed our secular positions tend to be a bit different then their popular Christian equivalents: I read Elisabella. She put a "FR" at the beginning of her post, so she was talking to the thread, not only to me. And my interpretation of what she said was that we were on the same side of the discussion. She can, of course clarify if she wishes. I've been known to be wrong, or not fully grasp the significance of every comment. In response to the rest of your post ... Your words reveal the hatred and animosity towards the Christian religion quite openly, just as Panda's have throughout this thread. Since you believe that your belief system is confirmed and validated by science, this points out to me that you harbor the very antithesis of what "science" is supposed to be about: a open, inquiring mind. Perhaps one day, you may overcome that deficiency and come to understand where your anger and hatred comes from. Then, you may have an opportunity to appreciate what purpose religious teachings hold. Best of luck, till then. Firm You consistently do this, along with a couple of other posters on here that share your philosophy. When you can no longer make a substantial argument you revert to claiming that anyone opposing your viewpoint does so out of anger or hatred.

GotSteel -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 4:31:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Your words reveal the hatred and animosity towards the Christian religion quite openly, just as Panda's have throughout this thread. Since you believe that your belief system is confirmed and validated by science, this points out to me that you harbor the very antithesis of what "science" is supposed to be about: a open, inquiring mind. Sorry, I thought we were having a discussion, my bad. I didn't realize we were playing the make up a position and attribute it to the other person game. In retrospect your last several posts straw-manning Panda and Rule should have clued me in. Here goes, you believe that global warming is caused by an angry unicorn and are endeavoring to placate it by sticking a traffic cone up your ass.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 4:46:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You consistently do this, along with a couple of other posters on here that share your philosophy. When you can no longer make a substantial argument you revert to claiming that anyone opposing your viewpoint does so out of anger or hatred. GotSteel quotes: ... god is parasitically feeding off of us somehow? Christianity plagiarized those, ... Yahweh stealing credit for other peoples work is really common. ... Yahweh's followers want to steal credit on his behalf for everything under (and including) the sun, it's completely undeserved. Panda quotes: ... if a religion steals an idea from someone else and claims it as their own ... ... Jesus Christ and his apostles stole the teachings ... ... Jesus Christ never had an original thought in his life ... ... is a universal moral principle that predates and transcends your puny religions ... ... and giving them any credit at all for the ideas they stole ... I see some real real anger in all of those words and phrases. Do you not? And I think I made a "substantial argument". Quite early, and consistently. You just happen to agree with the position of the two above posters and - like them - are allowing your biases to lead you into agreement with a position that doesn't stand up to basic logic. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 5:06:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Your words reveal the hatred and animosity towards the Christian religion quite openly, just as Panda's have throughout this thread. Since you believe that your belief system is confirmed and validated by science, this points out to me that you harbor the very antithesis of what "science" is supposed to be about: a open, inquiring mind. Sorry, I thought we were having a discussion, my bad. I didn't realize we were playing the make up a position and attribute it to the other person game. In retrospect your last several posts straw-manning Panda and Rule should have clued me in. Here goes, you believe that global warming is caused by an angry unicorn and are endeavoring to placate it by sticking a traffic cone up your ass. What has been going on, is that you and Panda (and rule) have been playing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy card. Firm

GotSteel -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 6:38:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY What has been going on, is that you and Panda (and rule) have been playing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy card. What has been going on, is that you have given yourself a frontal lobotomy with a power drill. P.S. I get a kick out of this game but anytime you want to stop playing and go back to actually having a discussion feel free.

auditguy -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 7:00:54 PM)
Judaism in the house. Can I get an A'men from all my Hebrew brothers?

vincentML -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 7:38:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: auditguy Judaism in the house. Can I get an A'men from all my Hebrew brothers? I am neither Judaic or a Believer but I like the poetry of the Shema: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One!" Beautiful, simple, but a profound expression of unity in exile..... so amen!

vincentML -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 7:47:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne religion isnt a product you buy off the shelf and try it on and see how it looks. It is the core you. For the purposes here it is liken to the embodiment and transubstantiation of the summation of your life experiences to date. Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I can't imagine what you mean by this sentence. quote: example atheism is a religion. Humbug sophistry. Non-belief cannot be belief. Illogical. quote: Religion is everything you believe regardless of the basis of the belief. More nonsense RO. Some beliefs are political. some are empirical. quote: In other words to say it another way you cannot use the word "need" because its not some subject matter you take in and presto you have religion and a title. It is the digested and later regurgitated version of all your experiences and what comes out of you. That is what your religion is. Overbroad and therefore meaningless as a definition.

Silence8 -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 8:11:07 PM)
I find quite revelatory Zizek's fourth explanation for the cross, that God sacrificed His only son to make up for creating such a fucked-up world.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/19/2010 11:42:35 PM)
There is only one true religion that has any influence over me...Shania.

eyesopened -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 5:49:13 AM)
~Fast Reply~ Who is the original owner of "It's bad to murder" so we can return it to its rightful owner? To say a religion stole something means it belonged to someone else. Did that someone else steal it from an earlier religion and they stole it from someone else who stole it from yet an earlier religion? So bashing people because their religion adopted a moral code and calling it stealing is just petty. 'Murder is bad' is not specific to any religion but then people have a hard time telling the difference between religion, spirituality, and morality. The OP question was regarding a religious belief as opposed to a moral tenet.

vincentML -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 6:28:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened ~Fast Reply~ Who is the original owner of "It's bad to murder" so we can return it to its rightful owner? To say a religion stole something means it belonged to someone else. Did that someone else steal it from an earlier religion and they stole it from someone else who stole it from yet an earlier religion? So bashing people because their religion adopted a moral code and calling it stealing is just petty. 'Murder is bad' is not specific to any religion but then people have a hard time telling the difference between religion, spirituality, and morality. The OP question was regarding a religious belief as opposed to a moral tenet. The bickering over definition has unfortunately diluted the rather elegant and thoughtful post put up by the OP. Almost all of the replies have been besides the point of the OP and not really responsive to it except those by yourself and Elizabella especially. It was on point also for Panda and Angelika to say, "None." The rest struck me as trash talk mostly and reveals that we really have very little to say in response to the OP. Personally, I am negatively influenced (repelled) by the blame-the-sinner explanation that Judeo/Christianity proposes as a justification for natural evil falling upon the innocent. By that I mean the innocent who suffer from forces of nature (hurricanes, earthquakes, etc) despite the presence of an omnipotent and benevolent god. The haunting question: why then does this god permit so much natural devastation?

MissAsylum -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 6:37:08 AM)
JEW FOR JESUS!

GotSteel -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 9:15:26 AM)
quote: Shania quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Who is the original owner of "It's bad to murder" so we can return it to its rightful owner? To say a religion stole something means it belonged to someone else. Not necessarily, one can't claim proprietary rights to ideas that are public domain. Christianity doesn't get to claim an idea that (as you point out) is public domain as it's own.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 10:47:11 AM)
FR The word still seems to imply that religion is something you grow out of, I guess for some that is true. I wasn't bought up in a religious enviroment my grandmother on my fathers side was catholic and my gradfather catholic, them getting married caused a lot of grief for my gran and so they had a lot of mistrust for religion. I went to sunday school as a child because I wanted to no one else in the family did, I was never confirmed or anything. My 'beliefs' are an amalgamation of different faiths, I believe there is a spirit or energy of something higher that runs through everything, that could be taken from any number of religions, I believe that death isn't the end I am not sure I believe that you go and live on a cloud or any of that stuff and I am not sure about the notion of heaven and hell I just believe that energy of living things lives on, thats also why I think 'psycic' powers and ghosts are linked to this idea of energy. My values, treat people as I wish to be treated, look out for people in a weaker position than mine, don't go out of your way to hurt someone are not for me derived from any kind of religious faith its more about my academic learning of history and the world around me that gave me those.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 11:04:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY It seems to me, that when I clarify what you are saying, you see that it will negatively affect your position, so you get irate, and deflect, rather than engage.... What I do is parse their "logic" to the core of the argument, in which case the weakness of the argument starts to become apparent. But again, that is not what you do. Most people who are familiar with your posting history have noticed this many times, and often commented on it. What you do is re-word people's positions in order to change the terms of the debate. You claim you're just trying to clarify the discussion, find common ground, etc, and what you're doing is stripping out whole portions of their argument and hoping they'll agree with your re-definition so that you can reframe the debate on your terms, instead of theirs. This thread was a classic example. I gave a complex answer, you stripped out half of it and tried to condense it down to one word in the hopes that I wouldn't notice. You do this constantly, and it's why a lot of people who used to enjoy a good give-and-take with you have just gotten so sick of your gameplaying they don't even bother wasting the keystrokes anymore. You're not interested in having a sincere, good-faith discussion - you're only interested in counting coup and scoring points, and you don't care how you do it. As long as the blasphemer is well and truly smited. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You wish to separate out from any religion anything which you wish to define as a "universal moral principle". In other words, if a belief is not exclusively and uniquely a part of a single religion, you are defining it as "not religious". As I have said, this is an uncommon and falsely exclusive definition of a "religious belief". In effect, you are saying something such as the Christian "Golden Rule" isn't part of the Christian creed of beliefs. You are saying "Thou Shalt Not Kill" has not connection with Christianity. Again, you are completely misrepresenting what I said, and once again I'm left to wonder if it's because you're dishonest or if you're genuinely not bright enough to comprehend what people are saying. Being the charitable sort that I am, I refuse to believe you're really that dumb. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY And my interpretation of what she said was that we were on the same side of the discussion. She can, of course clarify if she wishes. I've been known to be wrong, or not fully grasp the significance of every comment. And here's where the intellectual honesty comes into play yet again. Her definition - quote: If spirituality, religion, or faith has inspired the belief, it's a religious belief. If secular logic has inspired the belief, it's not. is very similar to what mine - quote: essentially unique (or at least original) to a particular religion was before you repeatedly tried to reword it, and completely contradicts the definition you tried to establish - quote: 3 values and practices centered on the teachings of a spiritual leader. So here you are literally arguing both sides of the same issue in the same thread, depending upon who you're talking to. And it's a pity, because you're a fairly intelligent guy, and could contribute a lot to these discussions if you chose to do so instead of using them to settle personal vendettas and lash out at people who make you feel threatened in your beliefs.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/20/2010 11:25:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened ~Fast Reply~ Who is the original owner of "It's bad to murder" so we can return it to its rightful owner? To say a religion stole something means it belonged to someone else. Did that someone else steal it from an earlier religion and they stole it from someone else who stole it from yet an earlier religion? So bashing people because their religion adopted a moral code and calling it stealing is just petty. It's not necessarily "bashing" people to point out that their religious belief is secularly, not spiritually, inspired. People steal other people's ideas and concepts all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. This is how the human race evolves. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anyone "bashing" christianity for not being original. What I'm doing is bashing certain so-called "christians" for claiming that the ideas are original, or that their religion is in some way responsible for those ideas. That's the difference. quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened 'Murder is bad' is not specific to any religion but then people have a hard time telling the difference between religion, spirituality, and morality. The OP question was regarding a religious belief as opposed to a moral tenet. Not everyone has a hard time telling the difference. We've got quite a few people right here in this thread who have no problem at all telling the difference. The OP's question - quote: What are you conscious of having kept from belief systems to which you no longer subscribe? is a simple one. For many of us, we are not conscious at all of having kept anything from a religious faith. Personally, I've never learned a single thing of any value from a religion that I hadn't already learned from a kindergarten teacher by about age 5. And my kindergarten teacher didn't have to threaten me with eternal incineration in the fires of hell in order to impress the lessons upon me - she just used common sense to teach me that this is the proper way for people to treat one another.

eyesopened -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/21/2010 3:37:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Christianity doesn't get to claim an idea that (as you point out) is public domain as it's own. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY GotSteel quotes: Christianity plagiarized those, ... Yahweh stealing credit for other peoples work is really common.. Please provide the proof in either Jewish or Christian doctrine or scripture where either religion claims moral tenets did not exist prior to the giving of The Law at Mt Sinai. sigh I'll save you some time. There isn't any. If an idea is public domain then it cannot be plagiarized as you claim. It was just mean-spirited. I know this is off topic, but could you explain why you feel the need to be mean-spirited?

GotSteel -> RE: Which religious beliefs still influence you? (5/21/2010 5:39:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened So bashing people because their religion adopted a moral code and calling it stealing is just petty. I guess I was talking to KY at the time so this didn't bother me the way it is on my second read through. I'm saddened by the proclivity of even moderate Christians to be hurt and offended by reality. I don't have any problem with Christianity and Christians having moral codes, though I'm sometimes bothered by what those codes contain (gay bashing and war mongering come to mind). What I've been speaking out against in this thread is the "there's no morality without god" argument. In this case KY trying to claim that these ideas belong to Christianity is attempting to steal intellectual property that rightfully belongs to all of us.

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