RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (Full Version)

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DomImus -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:28:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I tried to find this blog again, but it seems it has been deleted.


Perhaps they saw the error of their ways or someone found the leather hood in their sock drawer and outed them. I've never felt compelled to defend any of this. Most folks who are not into this really aren't going to understand the explanation even if they accept that it exists. When it comes right down to it once you get beyond the "consenting adults" angle much of this stuff is sorta difficult to defend, anyway... or at least much of the stuff in my toybag would be.



reynardfox -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:45:30 PM)

I don't spare empty minds a single thought.



Caius -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:56:06 PM)

I'm going to take the same lazy, but arguably more sensible, approach of avoiding a point-by-point refutation of those claims that most have responded with here and also join my opinion with those who have said that the vast majority of people, no matter how oblivious to the ins and outs of the 'lifestyle' are nowhere near that hostile towards it.  After-all, as I mentioned in another thread a while back, unlike some other areas of sexual preference, most people can be made to relate to bdsm in at least some marginal way if you just wrap it up in the right religious/traditionalist/kinky sex packaging.  Taken as a whole, the diverse activities and impulses that we refer to under the umbrella term of bdsm constitute some pretty common trends in human behaviour.  Stay away from the chains and latex and most of the 'vanilla people' can find common ground with you on some aspect or another.  And even the overtly fetishistic elements are now so common in popular media (albeit in exaggerated, misinformed or outright comical form) that they rarely provoke a truly excited reaction when encountered -- amusement is probably a more common response, though this may be insulting in its own right to some.   I think your blogger represents a rather extremist, reactionary and uncommon view -- go figure in a blogger, huh? And even were the more common view this hostile, it's not exactly compelling cause to engage in a pointless, entrenching debate with the tragically obtuse.

Edited to add: This was meant as a response to the OP.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 6:24:03 PM)


quote:

BDSM is bad because:

1. It reinforces and glorifies sexism either in form of male chauvinism or female chauvinism, which is sometimes romanticized as "female supremacy".

Even if it did in all cases (which it doesn't), so?

quote:


2. Its glorification of sexism makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality of sexes and for their rights.

As many feminists who engage in submission will tell you, the struggle for equality gave them the right to submit to male dominance or not.


quote:


3. It is addictive.

Sometimes that's the entire point. In general, there are many addictions, however; black raspberry ice cream can be addictive.


quote:


4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.

Look through the other side of the lens. What of those who, by virtue of letting so-called "vanilla" activities run their course in due time, find sex dull and uninteresting, only to discover an awakening through D/s?


quote:


5. People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices, so they usually push their limits, often ending up in very dangerous territories.

The same can be said of mountain climbing, bull riding or the martial arts. I see no moral conspiracy against those practices.


quote:

6. Only in mild forms of BDSM there is equal treatment and respect between those involved. All "pure" forms of BDSM involve systematic exaltation of one side, and depriving the other side of all their rights and humanity.

So long as it's between two consenting adults and they are not harming others, of what interest is it really to would-be naysayers?


quote:

7. Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of bloody fights for freedom which have been fought all over the globe.

In all my years of experience, I have never once found myself consciously saying "tee hee" in my mind over the historic contexts of slavery, though I do sometimes consider the practice of this human behavior throughout history.


quote:

8. Absolute forms of slavery are illogical.

Au contraire; since the time humans ceased nomadic behavior and created settlements, slavery has been very logical.


quote:

9. Slaves actually stop being humans, because having a choice, making independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being.

Have you tried living in Massachusetts?


quote:

10. It abandoned its own creed of Safe, Sane and Consensual, now embracing virtually anything, only if it is consensual.

I've personally had a hand in the movement of dismantling SSC. That said, "embracing virtually anything, so long as it's consensual" isn't accurate at all. Such statements are made by individuals who have little understanding (or experience) with D/s relationships.




NuevaVida -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 7:24:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

however; black raspberry ice cream can be addictive.



*GASP*  How did you know?!

To the OP, I'm afraid I'm not much of a BDSM advocate.  I do not feel the need to defend what I do, and tend to avoid those who would criticize it.  I'm afraid I'm not much help.

It was the black raspberry ice cream that pulled me in...



porcelaine -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 7:54:43 PM)

SocratesNot,

Their criticism isn't any harsher than the words BDSM practitioners levy upon one another. I have never seen anything that an outsider has stated that can hold court with the things I've read in places like these. Food for thought.

~porcelaine



BoiJen -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 8:00:04 PM)

I'd have to tell the person stating this crap to me to read up on the academic writings of Dr. Charles Moser. Specifically, the response piece to Spitzer and Fink entitled Politics Versus Science and Moser's examination of Feminism within SM sexuality. Moser cites in this piece that there is a distinct lack of empirical, scientific data to support any idea that consensual SM is inherently unhealthy and that the APA has upheld archaic definitions of "unhealthy" around SM activities because of sociocultural pressure rather than science. In fact, Moser quotes Spitzer in saying, "First of all [the removal of the Paraphilias from the DSM] is not going to happen because it would be a public relations disaster for psychiatry." Simply implying that the sacred nutrality and science base of the diagnostic manual for the APA doesn't even exist.

The other piece I would suggest reading up on is by Megan Yost, Development and Validation of the Attitudes about Sadomasochism Scale. Yost examines the attitudes and biases of groups of individuals ranging from politically conservative, to sexually conservative, and "rape myth acceptance". Yost cites the various factors of perceived SM activities (media presentation, religious views, etc) and the first or second hand knowledge information as a means of comparison. The conclusion was that those who personally knew more about SM, either through acquaintance or first-hand knowledge, were less likely to consider sexual deviancy as "socially wrong" (this goes toward the social history commentary), "inherently unhealthy",  and "violent".

Finally, if you can find the text, read Persecution of SM-identified individuals by S. Wright. It's enlightening in citing the damage and harm that is caused to individuals within this community because of the vanilla world's prejudices about us.

So....from the people who know more than I do about it...the original arguments presented here have no bearing in any reality and are products of fear and ignorance...not science. Opinion...science....who do you trust when it comes to heart surgery? Why would I trust my sex to anything else?

boi



SocratesNot -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 2:59:57 AM)

Thanks everyone for their responses.

It seems the original criticism caused different responses, from denying the need to defend BDSM from anything, through admitting that some of the criticism may even be true, up to trying to refute criticism point by point.

What I feel that most of you missed is the fact that the blogger probably wasn't complete outsider, but had some BDSM experiences. I'd go to say that she was probably beginner in BDSM so she started questioning herself, and criticizing herself, but she projected her criticism to the entire community and to the concept of BDSM as such.
That's what I can remember from this blog.

Also, I think that even though most of this criticism can be easily refuted, some parts of it seem to be at least partially true, and we should maybe try to reckon why some people come to believe things like that.



marie2 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 3:49:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I'd like to see if we can find valid counterarguments to defend BDSM from all of these accusations.



I think that would be an exercise in futility.

The only problem I see with the piece you quoted is that it's presented as cut and dried facts, rather than an examination of the potential issues that might occur for some people.

Some of those issues become reality in some peoples' lives. I think bdsm relationships do fuck up some people some times, for some of the reasons listed. But then, I'm sure we could come up with a list of possible downfalls that occur in non-bdsm relationships as well.

Why "defend" it at all?




MarcEsadrian -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 6:29:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
*GASP*  How did you know?!


I know you non-vanilla types very well.



Masculus -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 8:07:50 AM)

How do you defend sadomasochism from the vanilla d/s lifestyle?



mnottertail -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 8:09:04 AM)

Beat the fuckers into agreement with my views.

Thanks for asking.



DommeKeliDallas -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 8:15:21 AM)

Why "defend" it?
That is like trying to "defend" your religious or political views.

Live your life and quit making excuses for being who you are.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 8:39:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeKeliDallas

Why "defend" it?
That is like trying to "defend" your religious or political views.

Live your life and quit making excuses for being who you are.


I'm not so sure I agree with this "why defend it" idea, when I take it to its logical conclusion on a social scale. I think it behooves all who hold their liberties in this vein dear to familiarize themselves with the rhetoric and ignorance of the moral majority. It wasn't too long ago that such a majority necessitated that adult related sites ban together under the cover of the FSC. Law is not static, and courts can be politicized. What determines the climate of both are social attitudes and conceptions, which one will find are malleable enough with discourse, activism and education. It's a good idea for all to speak well on behalf of "the lifestyle", and consistently challenge those forces that rally to alienate and criminalize it.



domiguy -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 8:54:00 AM)

Nonsense. Do you see some of the people that participate out here? What lifestyle and who's vision of it am I supporting?

I support my vision of the lifestyle but it is overly a private affair. I don't give a flying fuck about those that rally to alienate and criminalize it.
In fact I don't really know of too many rallies or bills currently going through congress that would criminalize adult consensual behavior.

What is this community that you speak of? who are the members and what do they believe? Are they assembled for the right to control another, to drink piss or be choked out during sex or is it that they want to bitch about trolls on a forum and safe calls.

You can live damn near anyway you choose. People just don't seem to get that point.




ResidentSadist -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 10:09:00 AM)

... reinforces sexism . . . makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality . . . It is addictive . . . It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" . . . People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices . . . etc etc etc

Um... ok... its all true. This is the shit that makes it all worth while, so what's to defend?



MarcEsadrian -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 11:37:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
I don't give a flying fuck about those that rally to alienate and criminalize it.


You may think differently when police arrive at your door or venue from a neighbor's call, I'm suspecting—police who have to discern between possible domestic abuse (of which they would be consigned, by default, to act) or innocent adult play. While I'm not in line with the NLA or NCSF in all things, their stances on educating the social system between consensual SM and domestic violence has obvious merit. Apparently, they think so too.


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
What is this community that you speak of?

What is this community you speak of me speaking of? I never mentioned a "community", though if I had to put it in terms of community, I'd say "those who engage in sadomasochistic acts that are on the margins of debatable legality".


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You can live damn near anyway you choose. People just don't seem to get that point.

You have a fairly naive appreciation for the origin of your civil rights, I'm gathering. You can live any "damn way you choose", but only within the limits of the law and interpretations of it once your private life is out and undergoing dissection by "concerned authorities"—authorities who have, for example, considered "consensual non-consent" as grounds for criminal abuse in United States v. Marcus.

Further considering cases like Commonwealth v. Appleby, "Paddleboro" or Commonwealth v. Baker, I think there is ground enough to consider real-world threats to certain variances of BDSM practices. Those threats are posed vastly by public opinion which is then turned into law or enforces current law in a particular way. The Trafficking Victims Protection Act or even simple Assault and Battery laws can be used easily against those who partake in M/s relationships, should they find themselves ground up in the gears of LE or the judicial process.



leadership527 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 6:49:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Their criticism isn't any harsher than the words BDSM practitioners levy upon one another. I have never seen anything that an outsider has stated that can hold court with the things I've read in places like these. Food for thought.
How true. I have generally found WAY more acceptance among my vanilla friends than I have among the BDSM community.



porcelaine -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 7:23:15 PM)

leadership527,

quote:

How true. I have generally found WAY more acceptance among my vanilla friends than I have among the BDSM community.


Acceptance isn't important to me. People that seek it from others that have no bearing on their relationship have insecurities and validation issues.

However...

In relation to the post made by the OP, I'm not bothered. The individual merely stated an opinion which many deem extreme or off base. In terms of threats it is very low level unless someone takes his words and puts tangible action behind them. An attempt to shut down a venue or prevent an event from being held due to its content comes to mind. There's also the political aspect as Marc mentioned. We're all aware of well known cases where sexual practices have been viewed under a different guise than originally intended. That doesn't imply it will happen to you. But you should have some  idea of what might occur if things go awry.

On the behavioral side, I disagree with Domiguy. Privacy is afforded to everyone until someone gets a stick up their bum about what you're doing. Then you come in contact with your limitations if you were too ignorant to educate yourself about them beforehand. Abortion is a legal right and Roe still stands. But that doesn't prevent a group of anti-abortion renegades from pulling the trigger. They're fueled by the cause and a definite mental imbalance, but nonetheless they believe in it and are willing to invest time, energy, and money to have their way.

Perhaps BDSM practices haven't been impacted at that scale. However, I do remember legislation passing that impacted quite a few things related to adult content on the Internet. We can argue that the supposedly indecent were websites that people chose to access, but nonetheless complaints were levied.

I'm not suggesting that everyone is or should be an activist. But when the shit lands on your doorstep, the very communities you couldn't find are sought and the groups you bore no interest in are the ones you want in your corner.

~porcelaine



Silence8 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/18/2010 7:38:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

We don't have to defend anything. We don't have to judge ourselves on other people's moral standards. The whole vanilla vs. us thing is ridiculous and only makes the problem worse as well. I cringe whenever anyone of these boards does that. Life and let live. There is no them vs us. There is no better or worse.

Honestly, a couple of the things on that list are true in my opinion. So what? Trying to defend your moral standard on something to someone that doesn't share that standard is like trying to convince a pro-lifer abortion is ok, or trying to tell a totally straight heterosexual male to have sex with another man, you just are not going to get them to accept it, period.


Bullshit.



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