RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 7:47:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7
I didn't ask if these groups are generally "good".
I asked you if you think organizing to generally educate the public for all our protection is a good or bad thing.
As the official collarme token vanilla guy, my answer is "no, it is not good". The public does not want to be "educated". Where would you do this education exactly? Who would you get to attend?

In my opinion, a skit on Family Guy does more good than 2000 "educational seminars" ever could. Slowly, BDSM themes are creeping into mass media and the public is being desensitized to them. The other thing I think is good is to grow a set and stand up for it yourself rather than hope that some nebulous "others" will educate some nebulous "public". My wife is my slave. I am open about that. It is a good and joyous thing for us and there is no particular reason why other people should be offended by it. Granted, it'd be tougher if I was more involved with kink... I don't talk about the details of my sex life with strangers. But I will certainly talk about the details of my love with strangers... even vanilla strangers.

Honestly, when someone sees Carol and I together for real they are forced to look at the fact that we are obviously smiling and happy. She is clearly not oppressed or whatever other image might be in their heads. Well, when vanilla people see us that's how it goes. BDSM people are a tougher sell.



cloudboy -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:14:47 AM)


Its hard to get worked up over a diatribe or vague threats that might affect the personal relationships we have in place that are working just fine. Furthermore, our conduct is legal, so that leaves moral outrage or public condemnation -- two things I avoid by keeping my life private.



KnightofMists -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:32:47 AM)


quote:

BDSM is bad because:


1. It reinforces and glorifies sexism either in form of male chauvinism or female chauvinism, which is sometimes romanticized as "female supremacy".


You can't deny this. It is something that from some people's perspective this is exactly what it does. The best you can hope to achieve is an acknowledgement that this is actually in the minority of those that engage in the activity. Many people drive but not all drink and drive.

quote:


2. Its glorification of sexism makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality of sexes and for their rights.


Unfortunately this is true in a few cases. In fact, some rebel against this kind of thing by engaging into activities Identify in number 1. Again, the few is not the many.

quote:


3. It is addictive.


It can be.. but it not universally addictive. But maybe we should outlaw alcohol and chocolate because they two can be additive

quote:


4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.


again... this is something that does and can occur to some. But sooner or later we are all impotent in the end!

quote:


5. People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices, so they usually push their limits, often ending up in very dangerous territories.


this is actually rather common to many in the lifestyle. They get closer and closer to the edge. But tell me... how many people die or are injuried in vehicle accidents and compare that to those that are injuried and or die in BDSM activities. I think I know where are priorities should be if one is really concerned about the well-being of people.

quote:


6. Only in mild forms of BDSM there is equal treatment and respect between those involved. All "pure" forms of BDSM involve systematic exaltation of one side, and depriving the other side of all their rights and humanity.


Well.. there is extreme activities that this does occur in... but we in the community identify them as criminals and psychopaths and they are not part of the BDSM world.

quote:


7. Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of bloody fights for freedom which have been fought all over the globe.


in fact we celebrate those fights for freedoms in our own unique way. That to make fun of those fights is to insult the very thing we do within BDSM.

quote:


8. Absolute forms of slavery are illogical. While minder states of slavery are necessary in order to achieve a certain state of mind, in absolute slavery unreasonable demands of the master or mistress exceed to a enormous degree all that is needed for a slave to achieve a certain state of mind. This is because those demands continue well after that state of mind is achieved. Actually, in 24/7 relationship they never stop.


mmmmmmm spoken like someone that was hurt in a relationship gone bad within the lifestyle. Your mistakes do not equate to others making the same mistakes.

quote:


9. Slaves actually stop being humans, because having a choice, making independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being.


In actually fact... I promote the my slaves having the power and responsibility to make the choices and have the control to be who they are. It just so happens.. they see themselves as slaves to me.

quote:


10. It abandoned its own creed of Safe, Sane and Consensual, now embracing virtually anything, only if it is consensual. New creed is Risk Aware Consensual Kink which permits anything to which one consents fully aware of the consequences including blood, cannibalism (do you remember Armin Meiwes), feces, physical mutilation, etc.


ok...... you stated that mking independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being... and when they engaged into RACK behaviors by those choices you condem them. You can't have it both ways. Secondly, SSC and RACK are not the end all and do all of this lifestyle. Unfortunaely, some people do rather destructive things but they are few and far between. Some parents should never be parents... some adults should never be around children. But we can't stop universally stop people from being parents or adults from being around children. We must deal with those situations one at a time and prevent it when we can.



Jeffff -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:41:17 AM)

Well said as always KOM



Mercnbeth -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:44:08 AM)

quote:

How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations


You don't.

You live your life, have fun, walk around in the sunlight proudly, 'representing' at every opportunity; and if anyone asks - answer honestly about yourself and your relationship if you happen to be in one.

What's necessary to "defend"? To the close minded, or even the self-loathing who hide in the shadows of the internet; what defense would suffice?



porcelaine -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:47:40 AM)

whipmaker7,

quote:

but getting more tolerance in society, yes.


Tolerance isn't a driving force for me either. It's generally an ability to accept that's how the individual has chosen to live their lives. Nothing more or less. Maybe that's tolerance for some. But I see it as minding my own business in all truth.

Causes are often driven by a perception of harm or wrong being levied upon a victim that did not willingly consent to that treatment. I find the public opinion usually gets stuck on the obscene (including its aftermath) and consent. When someone has very strong definitions about the latter two tolerance may never come to pass. At the very least they need to accept that the people living that way should be allowed to do so.

~porcelaine



porcelaine -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 9:04:43 AM)

whipmaker7,

quote:

The person who wrote the blog is probably beyond help. It's the people who read such crap and are influenced by it without hearing another point of view that makes me say a little offense is the best defense on this subject


The person that reads his blog can find other opinions if he desires them. For some, his words are enough because they coincide with the ideas that individual already possesses. The omission of other viewpoints isn't accidental. If they agree with the things he wrote why bother?

Now bring that closer to home. A plethora of threads exist about behaviors that are generally considered favorable and those that would be probably suspect. The experienced have spoken as have those that didn't get the outcome they were seeking. The alternate points of views have been shared. Nonetheless, people still fall prey to the activities mentioned. Even though the information exists. Why? People hear what they want to hear. If they believe a course of action is in their benefit they'll follow it until they have a reason to change.

~porcelaine



SocratesNot -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 9:42:27 AM)

I think that KnightofMists gave perhaps the best explanation and partial rebuttal of all of the theses that were written on that blog.

I think that the point of this entire thread is more about us trying to reevaluate some aspects of BDSM and for novices to be better informed of possible negative aspects of it, than about arguing with those who are complete outsiders. As I already said, the person writing this blog probably isn't total outsider, so some of the points are true, but they represent only one way of looking at things, the negative one. I hope that positive aspects outweigh these negative ones in the end.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 12:31:13 PM)

1. It reinforces and glorifies sexism either in form of male chauvinism or female chauvinism, which is sometimes romanticized as "female supremacy".

Sometimes it does, for some people it is an excuse to act out misandry or misogyny either externalised or internalised.

2. Its glorification of sexism makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality of sexes and for their rights.

It doesn't the exaggerated sexism in some relationships is no more or less damaging to feminism than the hidden sexism that is in vanilla relationships or in life generally
3. It is addictive.

Yes it can be habitually addictive but then so can washing your hands, brushing your hair, having a wank if you have an addictive personality you can get addicted to many and most things.

4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.

It can do this too, but that doesn't make them impotent it makes them turned on by other things.

5. People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices, so they usually push their limits, often ending up in very dangerous territories.

This can happen, especially initially and I think often encouraged by the internet, but the idea of danger is a complex one, it is dangerous for a woman to go out in a mini skirt at night but that doesnt mean she shouldn't it is dangerous for a child to cross the road it is dangerous for a UAF member to go to a rally.

6. Only in mild forms of BDSM there is equal treatment and respect between those involved. All "pure" forms of BDSM involve systematic exaltation of one side, and depriving the other side of all their rights and humanity.

All BDSM activities involve consent in some form or another, either initial consent to the relationship or continuing consent to activities or a mix of both, fundementally the s-type can leave, therefore their 'rights' are there they may put some down for a while, and none of that affects humanity that just is. There have been many an argument about equality, I have left any relationship where I feel less important or significant than my partner/s


7. Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of bloody fights for freedom which have been fought all over the globe.

I really can't understand this one at all, it is that freedom that people are able to relinquish which is what makes BDSM possible in the first instance.


8. Absolute forms of slavery are illogical. While minder states of slavery are necessary in order to achieve a certain state of mind, in absolute slavery unreasonable
demands of the master or mistress exceed to a enormous degree all that is needed for a slave to achieve a certain state of mind. This is because those demands continue well after that state of mind is achieved. Actually, in 24/7 relationship they never stop.

This would be an easy argument to topple as it actually makes no sense. Firstly I am a person 24/7, a woman 24/7 and when in a relationship I am in that relationship 24/7. The fact that I do those things all day every day doesnt make them more unreasonable.


9. Slaves actually stop being humans, because having a choice, making independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being.

Well I would argue about the definition of human beings, and most of us are not able to constantly make free independent decisions.

10. It abandoned its own creed of Safe, Sane and Consensual, now embracing virtually anything, only if it is consensual. New creed is Risk Aware Consensual Kink which permits anything to which one consents fully aware of the consequences including blood, cannibalism (do you remember Armin Meiwes), feces, physical mutilation, etc.

It hasn't been abandoned some people still use it, I don't, if I used any it would be the latter and it indeed applies to life. Many things are risky or dangerous and the best way to tackle that is to go in with your eyes open. Jumping off a building with a springy chord is not safe it is risky and I certainly don't think it is sane, sanity is a hard word to pin down.

On a more general level, I tend to start any discussion about this kind of thing with asking people things, very few people have purely vanilla relationships the power dynamic may not be outlined the kink may seem natural rather than formalised but anyone that I have discussed this with have been able to come up with at least one BDSM activity they engage in. Of course I would also argue that BDSM is not the same as D/s or M/s

I wrote an essay when I was at university arguing a lot of these points, I actually think it misses out the fact that some people are drawn to BDSM because they are lacking in self confidence, because they feel that they won't be attractive without this element, also it can be used as a form of self medication. When I let some of my scene friends read my essay one or two decided to never talk to me again as it did contain the very real negative aspects of this whole thing. I think that it is sensible to be aware of it and refuse to accept it.

Of course we dont have to justify what we do to anyone, but I am a bit of a mini crusader, I have a debate literally every day about something because it is my view that challenging others and challenging my own ideas is the best way to grow.



SocratesNot -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 3:53:01 PM)

I agree with you on most points LillyoftheVally, especially I like your attitude aboutthe need to debate every day and to challenge our own views and ideas in order to grow.

Also, I think that the whole concept of BDSM is very, very fluid, and it can mean very different things for different people.
So, everyone should do only the stuff that works well for them, and only this.
I think it's wrong to try some things that you are really not into just because others do it. Everyone is person for themselves, so we aren't any better if we tried more things than someone else. In BDSM it should be quality that matters not quantity.

I also want to express my own opinion about one point that this bloger said, and which I agree with.

This is point 4:
quote:

4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.


Then you answered:
quote:

It can do this too, but that doesn't make them impotent it makes them turned on by other things.


I think this whole thing about impotence applies only to males.
If a male can't be turned on without being dominated, or without dominating his partner, he is impotent, in my opinion.
Imagine the following situation. A man encounters wonderful lady and he falls in love with her very much. She also likes him and they are a perfect match. They can enjoy most of the things together and have a lot of topics of common interest.
But then, when it comes to sex, he is pure dom or pure sub, while she is completely vanilla. He would like to have sex with her, but his cock stays soft as long as there is no BDSM involved.

Is he impotent then? I think he is.
And this whole situation is IMO more likely to happen to male subs then to male doms, but this also doesn't have to be the rule.



PrimalConsonance -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 5:15:02 PM)

I haven't read the entire thread but I'm reminded of something I read recently (Hell, it might have been here, I don't remember!) .  You can't reason someone out of an argument they didn't reason themselves into.



whipmaker7 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:20:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7
I didn't ask if these groups are generally "good".
I asked you if you think organizing to generally educate the public for all our protection is a good or bad thing.


As the official collarme token vanilla guy, my answer...




Leadership,

I'm still not too clear on what you're getting at there.

I think you missed my question earlier so I'll ask again: you engage in m&s that appears to involve collars and leashes… going by that fine icon you have!

m&s stands for master or mistress and slave (maybe you have another definition of it?). it doesn't have to involve sadomasochism, but bondage and discipline somewhere along the way I think. If so, i'd say you are living an m&s lifestyle that involves some sort of b&d, right? …or… am I missing something?



whipmaker7 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/20/2010 8:25:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

whipmaker7,

quote:

but getting more tolerance in society, yes.


Tolerance isn't a driving force for me either. It's generally an ability to accept that's how the individual has chosen to live their lives. Nothing more or less.


That's what tolerance means.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
The person that reads his blog can find other opinions if he desires them.



That's why those opinions should be made available in the first place.
That's why people should voice opinions… so others can read them.



quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
For some, his words are enough because they coincide with the ideas that individual already possesses. The omission of other viewpoints isn't accidental. If they agree with the things he wrote why bother?




Maybe because not everyone reading a blog here or there has their minds made up already? Maybe some haven't even thought of making their minds up?

With so many blogs and message boards today we can comment on those posts directly. We can get involved in dialogue. Minds don't have to be changed completely, but if you can help to provide some counterbalance for others reading, well… why not?



LillyoftheVally -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 9:51:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
This is point 4:
quote:

4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.


Then you answered:
quote:

It can do this too, but that doesn't make them impotent it makes them turned on by other things.


I think this whole thing about impotence applies only to males.
If a male can't be turned on without being dominated, or without dominating his partner, he is impotent, in my opinion.
Imagine the following situation. A man encounters wonderful lady and he falls in love with her very much. She also likes him and they are a perfect match. They can enjoy most of the things together and have a lot of topics of common interest.
But then, when it comes to sex, he is pure dom or pure sub, while she is completely vanilla. He would like to have sex with her, but his cock stays soft as long as there is no BDSM involved.

Is he impotent then? I think he is.
And this whole situation is IMO more likely to happen to male subs then to male doms, but this also doesn't have to be the rule.



Well it has to be read in line with my idea that no relationship is vanilla. Also its about what is more important I guess, if they are perfect together and he doesn't have any sexual interest then sex can't be an issue, tis about give and take though, as i believe no one is completely vanilla if they are that suited and he needs some element of D/s then you would think she would give it to him in some form, if not then its clearly not the right relationship for them.

I mean there are many deal breakers for me, I don't see that as a negative, lack of any form of D/s is one of them, I am arguably impotent without it because I simply don't get turned on by vanilla sex, I know you argue that only men can be impotent but I don't agree, sure you can fuck someone who isn't turned on but then thats not having sex is it, its simply using a hole the way you would use your hand or a flesh light.



SocratesNot -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 10:07:29 AM)

OK, I agree, women can also be impotent, but this wasn't the main point. The main point was the possibility to become desensitized and unable to become turned on if there is no D/s involved, which is, as you said possible.

I personally feel very bad about the idea of losing the ability of enjoying vanilla sex. I like BDSM, but as a male, I would feel very bad if I couldn't fuck a girl good old vanilla way.

And the second thing is, that in developed countries most people are unaware of BDSM and most girls would think you are impotent and stop respecting you if you couldn't fuck her without D/s. In developing countries the situation is many times even worse. If you can't fuck a girl you aren't considered a real man. If you mention BDSM or some other stuff you are considered pervert, psychopath or something worse.
I live in Bosnia, which is pretty traditional and conservative when it comes to sexual practices.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 10:12:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I personally feel very bad about the idea of losing the ability of enjoying vanilla sex. I like BDSM, but as a male, I would feel very bad if I couldn't fuck a girl good old vanilla way.

And the second thing is, that in developed countries most people are unaware of BDSM and most girls would think you are impotent and stop respecting you if you couldn't fuck her without D/s. In developing countries the situation is many times even worse. If you can't fuck a girl you aren't considered a real man. If you mention BDSM or some other stuff you are considered pervert, psychopath or something worse.
I live in Bosnia, which is pretty traditional and conservative when it comes to sexual practices.



On the first instance, I have never ever ever met a man involved in D/s who is unable to fuck because of the D/s I have met men who are impotent because of stress or alcoholism but thats about it.

Also if it is that important that you can still have vanilla relationships then you will never get to the stage that you need the element

Yes there are communities like that, there are also communities that think women should walk behind men and there are communities that think that sex before marriage is bad, there are lots of different cultural values, you could fight them all or you could stick to people with similar values as you when you engage in relationships.

If you can have sex you aren't impotent.



SocratesNot -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 11:15:36 AM)

I am not impotent, but sometimes this thought crosses my mind that BDSM oriented stuff is becoming more and more important for my sexual arousal, which leads to fears that over time I could get desensitized and unable to have a sex without it.



porcelaine -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 11:32:00 AM)

whipmaker7,

quote:

That's why those opinions should be made available in the first place. That's why people should voice opinions… so others can read them.


You assume they have a real interest in seeing a balanced viewpoint or changing their bias. If I hate homosexuals I couldn't care less why you think I should accept their lifestyle. I'll happily read people that think as I do. Dissenting opinions would only be fodder for ridicule not awareness. I hate them and I'm happy doing so.

quote:

Maybe because not everyone reading a blog here or there has their minds made up already? Maybe some haven't even thought of making their minds up?


True. If I'm on the fence I'll put the effort in to find more information. But if I merely want validation of my beliefs I probably won't waste time doing it.

quote:

With so many blogs and message boards today we can comment on those posts directly. We can get involved in dialogue. Minds don't have to be changed completely, but if you can help to provide some counterbalance for others reading, well… why not?


I didn't say that I didn't wish to. But we have a proliferation of things that didn't exist in the past and I'm still seeing the same stuff occurring. The original excuse was lack of access. But that's a little hard to spin now. I figure you're a dolt because you choose to be. Your mind is narrow until you have a reason to change it.

You underestimate the credence people place in what they read. There's something to be said about the messenger and his agenda. If they view either with suspicion they probably won't listen.

~porcelaine



ReginaMirus -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 11:35:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I am not impotent, but sometimes this thought crosses my mind that BDSM oriented stuff is becoming more and more important for my sexual arousal, which leads to fears that over time I could get desensitized and unable to have a sex without it.


'You know, I know what you're thinking, because right now I'm thinking the same thing... Actually, I've been thinking about it ever since I got here. Why oh WHY didn't I take the BLUE pill?"

It's already too late for you. But don't believe me. Try it for yourself.



Caius -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/21/2010 11:44:09 AM)

Actually, he's still got the option of another blue pill entirely if he needs to uh...put the bullets back in his bullet time. Get the rabbit ready to go down the hole.  Feel it, balls to bone.

But honestly, I very sincerely doubt this is a frequent occurrence.  A man would have to be very (arguably pathologically) fixated on a specific act in order to render him impotent in all other situations, without a purely physiological component also contributing to the condition.   And such persons would probably be less likely those who grew into these needs and more likely those who always had trouble performing without that particular paraphilia.



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