RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation?

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RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:07:07 AM

lizi

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Joined: 2/1/2009
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After reading what you consider humiliation to be, I can say unequivocally that my partner and I do not partake in anything close to what you have listed and probably never will. It's just not us - it wouldn't suit us at all. There's nothing wrong with how other couples choose to live, humiliation just isn't our thing. We have other things we concentrate on instead.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 21

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:08:59 AM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline

Humiliation (like so many other things in bdsm) is in the eye of the beholder. One must arrive at a fairly standard definition of humiliation that applies to everyone before your questions may be adequately addressed. Good luck with that.

Our relationship does not involve any overt humiliation dynamic but there are small aspects of it that have an element of humiliation to them. Gags, for example. Let's face it - gags don't really silence anyone. They limit your ability to articulate which has a certain element of humiliation to it. Some gags render it difficult or impossible to swallow which leads to drool which is humiliating to some. I don't gag her to silence her. I do so because I enjoy the visual aspect of it and I enjoy her frustration and the small measure of humiliation she takes away from it. Even restraints can offer a modicum of humiliation. She finds the straight jacket to be quite so. There is a level of humiliation involved when your activity and movement are limited even though humiliation is not the focus.

From where I sit there are relatively few relationships in WIITWD that do not contain at least some measure of peripheral humiliation.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 22

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:09:41 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Of all the things BDSM, I am the least comfortable with humiliation.
I don't like to humiliate people nor I want to be humiliated.
I admit some humiliation games can be hot, but I sincerely think that any humiliation in the end causes more long-term psychological harm then temporary pleasure and arousal. This is especially true if the humiliation is applied on regular basis.

So my question is - Can BDSM (and other subvariants like D/s and M/s) exsist without ANY humiliation WHATSOEVER?. This includes BOTH verbal humiliation and doing humiliating TASKS.

All the other aspects of BDSM would still be present and they include obedience, control, pain, punishment (sadomasochistic aspects), serving, bondage, but without humiliation.

You need to be more specific when defining what constitutes humiliation and, most importantly, exactly whose perspective of what constitutes a humiliating act are you concerned about?

For instance, I'd never deliberately humiliate my girl in front of a 3rd party; I just don't need to build my ego by dragging hers down. That said, there's all manner of things I'll do to her or have her do that society in general wouldn't approve of.

For eg, I don't consider that I'm humiliating the girl when she's naked and kneeling with hands clasped behind her head while I'm hovering about fully clothed and conducting a little interrogation. I'm having a good time *dominating* her, and she's having an equally good time as only a submissive would understand.... But what of the 'nilla pervert looking through the window? Would he not consider her plight humiliating?

I'd say he would.... So the question for you is, whose perspective are you really caught up in? What society might think in general and thus your own guilt that comes from years of vanilla social engineering that we're all subjected to? The very act of having your partner follow a simple command would be considered a humiliation by egalitarian society's standards.

So the answer to your question is a resounding "NO!" which basically means you're conflicted and not comfortable with being whoever you are.... You're more concerned with what strangers and/or society thinks you are. And that makes for one very dysfunctional dom/switch/sub.

It's a wonderful thing being comfortable in your own skin, esp if you're a decent person in general. And I consider myself to be in such a place.... You?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 23

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:10:14 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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Lizi, I think that we have very similar tastes in BDSM then.

(in reply to lizi)

Post #: 24

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:17:52 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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So if anyone missed it, I will repeat what I consider to be humiliation and what I don't consider to be humiliation

quote:

Humiliation is not:
- calling your partner good girl, good boy, playtoy, fucktoy, dumbfuck, slut, perv, etc. - all the "names" that have playful sexual conotation are not humiliating
- anything that is a part of well defined role-play is not humiliation - so your partner can be a doggy, a kitten, a bad boy, a bad girl, a pupil, a pony, etc, this is not humiliation, he can be even the human furniture if this is just a part of scene and roleplaying
- having your partner do things to you that are reasonable and that you really need or want is not humiliation, even if these tasks are hard - this includes cleaning house, cleaning car, cooking, etc

quote:

So, IMO real humiliation includes the following:

- having your partner do the things in a way which is deliberately designed to be harder and humiliating, for example - cleaning the toilet with the toothbrush or even with tongue,
- calling your partner worthless, useless, pathetic, idiot, worm, pig, inadequate, retarded etc.
- cuckolding in any way, shape and form
- expoitation of your partner for its own sake, like having her do all the chores, just because she is submissibe, while you watch TV lazily all day. The same can be in femdom situation.
- financial domination in any way shape and form, especially if it involves large amounts of money and terms like, human ATM, pay piggy and other aforementioned terms
- isolation of the sub from friends and relatives
- neglecting subs own hobbies and preferences - such as controlling what kind of music he listens to, what kind of books he read, what kind of websites he visit etc.
The one thing is suggesting him some types of music, books or websites, the other thing is forbidding him to listen to his favorite band and to read his favorite author.
- attitude that you are superior just because you are dominant, and that your subs pleasure, needs and wants aren't important at all
- anything that has to do with things which are intuitively dirty and which lack the basic dignity, such as forcing your sub to your eat shit, be your ashtray, drink your piss, eat food from the floor, clean floor with his tongue, worship your dirty feet etc. (actually foot worship is not humiliating at all if the feet are clean)
- having him do the "menial" tasks not because they have to be done, but just for the sake of humiliating him and showing him that he is incapable of any more sophisticated work

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/21/2010 5:19:25 AM >

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 25

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:37:08 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

So if anyone missed it, I will repeat what I consider to be humiliation and what I don't consider to be humiliation

If that's a shot at me, I'll just say that that post wasn't up when I started writing mine.

And so what - you've got a list? Kinda makes the topic irrelevant when you start applying personal definitions because *everyone* does that within their own dynamic. Besides, the fact you've got such a comprehensive list means you're spending a little too much time pondering the issue and reinforces my own previous point that you're not comfortable being you....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 26

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:48:28 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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I am fascinated with anything that is extreme and that I don't understand. That's why I spent maybe too much time reading about such things. It doesn't translates into "he actually likes it, but he is in denial" - this only translates "he is intrigued and confused by such practices and he wants to find out more"

I don't feel you want to productively participate in this topic, Focus.
If I don't define what I consider to be humiliation you say "how can we talk about it when we don't even know what you consider to be humiliating", then after I define, you say it is pointless to discuss about topic based only on my definition.

I tried to be as realistic as possible in defining what constitutes a real humiliation. Everyone is completely free to come up with their views and definitions, I just expressed mine for the sake of making this topic go in a constructive direction.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 27

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 5:50:07 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

worship your dirty feet etc. (actually foot worship is not humiliating at all if the feet are clean)

Unless the person in question finds feet repulsive. It's funny, feet cause strange reactions in people.

quote:

So, my question is, can BDSM be completely without such examples of humiliation that I just mentioned?

Again yes.

quote:

If the answer is yes, how common is such humiliation that I just mentioned. Do more relationships involve these things or lack them?

That isn't a question that can be answered by people on a forum - that needs research and polls really although - and I am generalizing here - many of those that you listed seem to be more male humiliation techniques, than female. In other words, males relish being humiliated in the ways you listed.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 28

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:00:50 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I don't feel you want to productively participate in this topic, Focus.

You'd be wrong. Maybe I just suck at telling you what you want to hear? Because I really don't get off composing lengthy posts on subjects I'm not interested in cos I'm bored....

On the bright side (for you, apparently), it's late here.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 29

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:04:22 AM

CarrieO

Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

different strokes for different folks

You just answered your own question. What one person sees as humiliating, another will see as service or part of a loving dynamic.

I have to agree with the.dark, though, the majority of things you have on your list of humiliating activities are things that generally are attractive to males. Not all, mind you, but more than a few.

_____________________________

"No matter what happens in the kitchen, never apologize"~Julia Child~

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 30

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:15:08 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Are you writing a book?

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 31

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:17:12 AM

VirginPotty

Posts: 11624
Joined: 7/16/2008
From: Virginville
Status: offline

Just like a vanilla relationship, find a partner that loves the same things you do & it won't be a problem. Whether or not you slap a label on it & call it BDSM is irrelevant.

**Eta, your lists seem way too complicated. You're overthinking this. (See above bold comment)**

< Message edited by VirginPotty -- 5/21/2010 6:18:51 AM >

_____________________________

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

(in reply to CarrieO)

Post #: 32

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:26:27 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

different strokes for different folks

It is true, but why wouldn't we try to understand those strokes and folks that differ from us?

quote:

the majority of things you have on your list of humiliating activities are things that generally are attractive to males.

Not for all males. Not even to all male subs. Only to a small subset of submissive males.
Such things are memes. Viruses of the mind. I am more then sure that 90% of the males who are supposedly attracted to such things would never develop this attraction on their own. They only became attracted to such things after seeing it on the Internet, in porn movies or in some femdom stories.
So there is a very small core of maybe 10% sub males who actually develop such ideas and distribute this through the Internet, influencing in such ways others, and also influencing Female Dominants who start to cater to desires of these 10% of subs, but in the meantime, other subs who see it, become somehow attracted to it and these things become standard instead of rare fantasy of the minority.

quote:

Are you writing a book?

No, maybe some day, though, but not now.

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 33

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:30:01 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Just like a vanilla relationship, find a partner that loves the same things you do & it won't be a problem. Whether or not you slap a label on it & call it BDSM is irrelevant.

Very true. All the things that people do could also be done without the existence of the concept of BDSM. There is no "proper" way to do BDSM.
Trying to do something "properly" can sometimes cause more harm than good.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 34

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:40:44 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO
You just answered your own question. What one person sees as humiliating, another will see as service or part of a loving dynamic.

Yes, of course. But this answer evades the question. For any person, there will in fact be things which are humiliating. They will vary from person to person -- but they will be there. The question, at it's root, is "Can D/s exist in the absence of humiliation".

Honestly, that question baffles me. I can't imagine why anyone would even wonder that? Numerous posters have said that their relationships don't include humiliation. I think his question has been answered.

SocratesNot
What I can tell you is that when I get off the internet and I go into the real world where real life, stable, long-term M/s relationships exist (and I personally find this largely at MAST meetings, not at BDSM munches or play parties), what I see is a bunch of well-adjusted, loving, happy people who spend a lot more effort figuring out how to enhance each other's lives than harm their partners. What I see is folks who may or may not be kinky, but their kink is not their relationship - it's just kink. Their relationships are generally founded on very traditional relationship values that any vanilla person would recognize and there is nothing unusual about it except the degree to which they have committed themselves into the relationship.

I might be wrong, but I sense that under the covers there's another question you are asking. I think that question is really, "Can a D/s or M/s relationship be healthy." The answer is "Yes it can and the proof is born out by any number of very long-term relationships." As I said, when you look at such couples (or poly families) in the real world, what you see is lots of smiles, joking, laughter, and people generally snuggling up against each other as if they were newlyweds not couples married for 20 years. You see lots of relationships that Dr. Phil would approve of despite their unusual authority structures. At least... that's what I see when I look at actual long-term M/s couples in the real world.

Now, can you answer a question for me? And this is a serious question.... "Why did you even wonder whether humiliation was necessary or not? What sources got that image in your head?"

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to CarrieO)

Post #: 35

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 6:42:27 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Many of you asked me what I consider to be humiliation. Well, I will first tell you what I do NOT consider humiliation.
Humiliation is not:
- calling your partner good girl, good boy, playtoy, fucktoy, dumbfuck, slut, perv, etc. - all the "names" that have playful sexual conotation are not humiliating
- anything that is a part of well defined role-play is not humiliation - so your partner can be a doggy, a kitten, a bad boy, a bad girl, a pupil, a pony, etc, this is not humiliation, he can be even the human furniture if this is just a part of scene and roleplaying
- having your partner do things to you that are reasonable and that you really need or want is not humiliation, even if these tasks are hard - this includes cleaning house, cleaning car, cooking, etc

Now we have those few things that are indeed real humiliation, and I wouldn't personally suggest them to anyone, though, different strokes for different folks, so this is just my personal opinion. So, IMO real humiliation includes the following:

- having your partner do the things in a way which is deliberately designed to be harder and humiliating, for example - cleaning the toilet with the toothbrush or even with tongue,
- calling your partner worthless, useless, pathetic, idiot, worm, pig, inadequate, retarded etc.
- cuckolding in any way, shape and form
- expoitation of your partner for its own sake, like having her do all the chores, just because she is submissibe, while you watch TV lazily all day. The same can be in femdom situation.
- financial domination in any way shape and form, especially if it involves large amounts of money and terms like, human ATM, pay piggy and other aforementioned terms
- isolation of the sub from friends and relatives
- neglecting subs own hobbies and preferences - such as controlling what kind of music he listens to, what kind of books he read, what kind of websites he visit etc.
The one thing is suggesting him some types of music, books or websites, the other thing is forbidding him to listen to his favorite band and to read his favorite author.
- attitude that you are superior just because you are dominant, and that your subs pleasure, needs and wants aren't important at all
- anything that has to do with things which are intuitively dirty and which lack the basic dignity, such as forcing your sub to your eat shit, be your ashtray, drink your piss, eat food from the floor, clean floor with his tongue, worship your dirty feet etc. (actually foot worship is not humiliating at all if the feet are clean)
- having him do the "menial" tasks not because they have to be done, but just for the sake of humiliating him and showing him that he is incapable of any more sophisticated work

So, my question is, can BDSM be completely without such examples of humiliation that I just mentioned?

If the answer is yes, how common is such humiliation that I just mentioned. Do more relationships involve these things or lack them?

Who says? I know many people that would find the things you say are not humiliating, in fact humiliating. And honestly some of the things you listed in what you seem to view as extreme I wouldn't personally find humiliating at all, well maybe to the domm(me) if they act like that (haha). I'm not sure it's intentional, but you aren't really trying to understand how varied people are in this regard as much as you are trying define them. You can't.

Additionally, I have pondered why some things that may seem extreme to others aren't humiliating to me, and I just don't know that there's always a definable answer to that question either. Psyche, experience, relationship, mood..and many other factors come into play.

To answer your original question, of course there is d/s without humiliation. There's d/s without sex, there's bdsm without bondage...etc...and every variation you can think of.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 36

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 7:22:01 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

"Why did you even wonder whether humiliation was necessary or not? What sources got that image in your head?"

Because it is extremely common theme, especially online and in fantasy, but also, in some real life relationships.
Online relationship can also be a real life relationship if it has real life consequences, even if the parties involved never met in person.
So when someone goes bankrupt because of financial domination, this is also a real life relationship with real life consequences, even if he never met his domme in person.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 37

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 7:27:15 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

I can think of nothing more humiliating than going bankrupt because of an online Domme.

I would like to know where the suckers... I mean submissives are who could be... persuaded to do such a thing.

MistressJeff

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 38

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 7:28:52 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

SocratesNot - are you male or female?

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 39

RE: Can BDSM, D/s, and M/s exist without ANY humiliation? - 5/21/2010 7:33:57 AM

SocratesNot

Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

I'm a male.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 40

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