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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 6:22:27 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

i've tried  to pretend like She likes me for other reasons, but i know that VaguelyCurious only wants me for my 10 inch penis.  But i'm okay with that. 
What can I say? I've never pretended to be anything less than shallow


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 6:22:53 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

OK, since everyone thinks I'm an ass and my advice is rude, and yet none of them said that they themselves would enjoy being in such a relationship which is based exclusively on money I challenge everyone who thinks that he or she would enjoy being in a relationship in which their partner like them ONLY because of their money or some other practical utility while at the same time being totally unattracted to them as persons to stand up and say, "Yes, I would enjoy being in such a relationship!" This way we can see how many people would really enjoy being in such a relationship and if it happens that there is a lot of them, I will gladly admit that I am the biggest ass and that the my whole advice was nothing but a pile of crap.



When I was just starting my career and not interested in or had the time to really develop a relationship, one of my early arrangements was for play only with a gentleman who was coming out of an LTR and not interested in diving into the scene again yet. Not only did I not find the guy attractive, we had nothing in common other than bdsm and having anything other than a short conversation with him made this very clear to both of us. However, he was a very skilled top and had been around the block enough to help me find my way. Through the course of about 8 months, I learned tons about myself and developed a distant understanding and fondness for him. Clearly however, this relationship was only utilitarian for both of us and also enjoyable as it fit both of our needs at that time. When I looked at him one day and said I'm ready for more, he helped me start looking, introduced me to some net groups and sites and we parted ways. I'm still incredibly greatful to have found him and yes, it was completely utilitarian, I knew very little about his day to day life nor he about mine, we didn't share much of anything emotionally and yes I enjoyed the relationship immensely.

Granted, this doesn't fit your theoreitical examples in the intro, but nonethless it was certainly NOT about any interest in me as a person. I was an object to him, something he could cause a reaction in and my own feelings were much more driven by understanding myself than anything he wanted, hell I have no idea what he wanted but it sure as hell wasn't me.

And I can tell you, you may not get many subs saying this on these forums but when I was looking for male subs several of them that contacted me wanted to live in my home and clean it, live in a cage and have NO sex whatsoever and very little attention. There were also quite a few that wanted to give me money with NO sex in exchange. As unfathomable as you may find it, yes YOU ARE WRONG.



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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 6:50:17 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:


When I was just starting my career and not interested in or had the time to really develop a relationship, one of my early arrangements was for play only with a gentleman who was coming out of an LTR and not interested in diving into the scene again yet. Not only did I not find the guy attractive, we had nothing in common other than bdsm and having anything other than a short conversation with him made this very clear to both of us. However, he was a very skilled top and had been around the block enough to help me find my way. Through the course of about 8 months, I learned tons about myself and developed a distant understanding and fondness for him. Clearly however, this relationship was only utilitarian for both of us and also enjoyable as it fit both of our needs at that time. When I looked at him one day and said I'm ready for more, he helped me start looking, introduced me to some net groups and sites and we parted ways. I'm still incredibly greatful to have found him and yes, it was completely utilitarian, I knew very little about his day to day life nor he about mine, we didn't share much of anything emotionally and yes I enjoyed the relationship immensely.


I was refering exclusively to money or some other tangible or economic utility. Being compatible in BDSM doesn't fit into this category.
Two people having sex casually just because they enjoy sex without any strings attached is one thing, paying in order to have sex is totally different thing.

quote:


And I can tell you, you may not get many subs saying this on these forums but when I was looking for male subs several of them that contacted me wanted to live in my home and clean it, live in a cage and have NO sex whatsoever and very little attention. There were also quite a few that wanted to give me money with NO sex in exchange. As unfathomable as you may find it, yes YOU ARE WRONG.


OK they wanted this probably because of their fetishes or desires etc. But do you think that such relationship would be meaningful or even possible on long term?
Also, even if this is possible, do you think it would be healthy for anyone to stay long in such kind of relationship?
Someone's fantasy is one thing, actually living it on long term is completely opposite thing. My advice was about real life, long term, pesonal relationships, not about what you should fantasize about or do as a part of scene or some similar short-term arrangement.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 6:55:34 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		First of all, we did NOT have sex in any meaning of what you are saying. Second of all, what you are really really missing is this...

THIS IS BDSM TO THEM! This is what an LTR dynamic IS TO THEM.

and yes I do believe it can be enjoyable and healthy for them. Your assumption that they are all being taken advantage of by big bad dommes is just foolish. You dishonesty in always changing the premise or question of the moment and ignoring any reponse that's contrary makes you unintelligent and a waste of time here. Stop it. Discuss, don't dictate and pull your head out of the box you're trying to put the rest of us in.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 7:06:57 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

First of all, we did NOT have sex in any meaning of what you are saying.


I didn't say that you had sex. I just said you did the thing which is mutually enjoyable for both. This is LIKE having a casual sex with no strings attached.
For someone it is casual sex, for someone casual BDSM, or casual tennis match, etc. Yes, your relationship was utilitarian in the same way casual sex is utilitarian. But your relationship wasn't economically exploitative, let alone, exclusively based on economical exploitation.

quote:

THIS IS BDSM TO THEM! This is what an LTR dynamic IS TO THEM.

and yes I do believe it can be enjoyable and healthy for them. Your assumption that they are all being taken advantage of by big bad dommes is just foolish. You dishonesty in always changing the premise or question of the moment and ignoring any reponse that's contrary makes you unintelligent and a waste of time here. Stop it. Discuss, don't dictate and pull your head out of the box you're trying to put the rest of us in.


Well, on that one, I'm not sure. You may be right. I just somehow doubt it would be healthy for someone to stay in a cage and just cleans a house on some long term, and to consider such relatiuonship his primary and possibly even only relationship.

I am not blaming dommes for anything. Anyway, most of the time it is the subs who initiate such arrangements. I am just saying that I think that this would probably not function as primary relationship in long term.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 7:33:23 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Many might split hairs with your post here, but I pretty much agree with it 100%.

For instance, I don't think LuckyAlbatross, playing the contrarian here, would like to clean house for someone who thought she was ding-bat and who was also physically repulsed by her body.

LadyHibiscus who strikes a seemingly disagreeable tone with you, actually agrees with you 100%, as she seems to have an aversion to being used by a partner.

I also agree with Rochsub in some ways, mainly that whatever works -- works -- even if it defies "the rules." Still, this doesn't mean a person can't postulate guidelines and relationship target objectives.

As for Jeff, "It seems to me that you don't want to submit, you want to be pleased. There is nothing wrong with that, it just isn't submission."

I mean, what the fuck is this crap? If submission was not pleasing, no one would do it. Would they? Its pure idiocy to think subs can't think about and want their own needs met.

"You seem to view things as the act and then impress certain things upon those acts. The reality is that acts are nothing, they are space holders. We can (and do) fill them with what works for us. " (LA again)

This strikes me as part insightful, and part sophomoric. If someone points a gun at my head, mugs me, and takes my wallet by force --- I would call this a robbery and the law would classify it a crime. What happened certainly is "something," and I would take issue with someone trying to spin it otherwise. Using relativist jargon is not a suitable way to understand experiences and what's happening in the world. Observations, perceptions, and cognition of experience can always be better, more accurate, and closer to reality. To give all views equal weight means you've lost all sense of measurement.

Must say that I'm stunned by how many folks seem like the idea of transactional relationships. I side with Eric Fromm, its what you put into a relationship (humor, energy, money, perceptions, skills, culture) that powers it forward. Hopefully one's partner would appreciated those very things.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/21/2010 7:42:06 PM >

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 7:45:35 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		Cloudboy, congratulations on your excellent post.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:11:12 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

SocratesNot,
i don't mean to criticize, but i've read a few of the threads that you've started recently, and several of them seem to be a bit naive.

Each person has to determine what works for them.  If it doesn't work for you, then don't do it.  But there is no need to judge others for participating in those behaviors.

i have a very good friend who his short, fat, has male pattern baldness, and is generally not viewed as a particularly handsome fellow.  However, he owns a multi-million dollar company and has tons of money.  His wife is HOT.  i mean supermodel hot.  She is one of the most beautiful women i've ever seen.  She is also almost 20 years younger than him.

They live in a mansion, and she drives both a Mercedes and a Lexus.  She doesn't work, and she spends a good deal of her time shopping.  He tells me that their sex life is the stuff of fantasies.  So where's the problem?

He knows that he couldn't have gotten her if he weren't rich.  She's using him for his money, and he's using her for her beauty and sex.  They're both happy.  They've been married for almost a decade now.  i can't remember ever seeing them argue or fight.  Sounds like a good relationship to me.

Their relationship violates your premise, but they'd both say #&$% you and your premise, and they'd keep the marriage.


And you call Socrates naive!

Get real.

Socratic-fellow---- don't let these douche bags stop you from thinking. There are so many Americans just like them, 'tools' absolutely, no ability to think for themselves, or to achieve anything of any substance whatsoever---- stick to your style, and you'll find somebody that appreciates substance.

The rest of them are too vapid even to go to hell. They don't give a fuck because that's exactly what they're not worth.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:16:48 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I suggest you read more, meet more real people, and start fewer threads for awhile.


Could say the same thing to you, just replace 'threads' with 'dismissive unintelligent comments.'

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/21/2010 10:17:05 PM >

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:18:22 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

"You should only be in a relationship with a partner who is interested in you as a person regardless of any economical or other utilitarian benefits they may get from you."


Disagree.

the.dark.


Ditto the.darkness, as is so often the case.


Likely subtext: You're in this kind of relationship, and sensitive to the implications.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:23:07 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Again, very intelligent response. I like the way you look at the things LadyNTrainer.
My advice was actually that people don't get in a RELATIONSHIP where they are not desired as persons. Since a session with the pro-domme is not a relationship, this could be an exception. I admit I put it a bit awkwardly at first. Actually pro domination isn't bad in itself, it is bad if it is used as a replacement for a real relationship.
As long as the relationships between provider and client are clearly separated from personal relationships, all is cool. The problem is that in the D/s it can sometimes get blurry, and also, as you said, it's unethical to play the lifestyle domme, and after some time start asking for tributes.



Your advice lacks insight and knowledge. Why would anyone take it?


Again, speak for yourself.

What he's saying makes perfect sense. I personally would recommend against engaging in any kind of pro-domination (or prostitution, which everyone knows isn't that far off)) because of the mutual objectification that occurs necessarily.


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:31:09 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

But when he gets sex and she gets money, this is somehow wrong in my opinion I don't know why.



But you do understand that this is an arrangement that is as old as the human species.  Women have always married for money.  It is a biological way of insuring the security of herself and her offspring. 

Similarly, men have always paid for sex.  That's why prostitution is called the "world's oldest profession".

Society can be so puritanical at times.  i personally see no reason for prostitution to be illegal.  If a woman wants to sell her body, and a man wants to pay for it, where's the problem?  Moreover, if a woman wants to marry a man because he's rich, why is that wrong?  Who said love was a better reason for a relationship than money.  Heck, i'll bet  the divorce rate for marriages based on love is higher than it is for marriages based on money (i have no basis for this, so you statistics nerds don't need to ask me for my evidence)



God you're thick.

There are too many errors for me to know where to begin.

The main point is that most prostitutes don't *want* to sell their bodies. (Honestly, do we even have to go over this?)

Also, if you look closely at those objectified relationships with which you're so contented, you'll find more often than not all kinds of dysfunction, especially in the kids.

Ugh. We could use a few more Socrates, a few fewer, well...


< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/21/2010 10:36:33 PM >

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:39:36 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

"You seem to view things as the act and then impress certain things upon those acts. The reality is that acts are nothing, they are space holders. We can (and do) fill them with what works for us. " (LA again)

This strikes me as part insightful, and part sophomoric.


Honestly, it's scary. We're all so fucked!

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 10:43:22 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

First of all, we did NOT have sex in any meaning of what you are saying. Second of all, what you are really really missing is this...

THIS IS BDSM TO THEM! This is what an LTR dynamic IS TO THEM.

and yes I do believe it can be enjoyable and healthy for them. Your assumption that they are all being taken advantage of by big bad dommes is just foolish. You dishonesty in always changing the premise or question of the moment and ignoring any reponse that's contrary makes you unintelligent and a waste of time here. Stop it. Discuss, don't dictate and pull your head out of the box you're trying to put the rest of us in.


You stop it.

You're 'don't dictate' (which, of course, dictates) is worse than dictating, which Socrates isn't necessarily doing.

Just because you deny the truth of your reality (that is, what you know but what you don't want to know that you know), don't impose your disconnect on others.


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/21/2010 11:13:59 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
I personally would recommend against engaging in any kind of pro-domination (or prostitution, which everyone knows isn't that far off)) because of the mutual objectification that occurs necessarily.


While I respect that you have personal boundaries that would make it uncomfortable for you to be involved in such a transaction, I have to ask why you believe that everybody must have the same personal boundaries as you do?

When you hire a plumber or a doctor or a psychotherapist, it's a professional transaction.  I guarantee there is mutual objectification going on.  You contract for the service, you pay for the service, and if you've found an ethical professional, you get exactly the service you need.  This is how the real world works, ever since we quit being nomadic hunter-gatherers and started specializing.  Hell, even hunter-gatherer tribes usually had somebody who was better at making arrows and somebody who was better at making pottery, so they traded for what they needed.   That's pretty much what makes the world go around, and the capacity to engage in this kind of exchange is arguably one of the fundamental things that makes us human.

If your contention is that involving sexuality makes it morally wrong for consenting adults to conduct a fair exchange, please get in line for the soapbox that is currently being used by televangelists and Catholic priests to preach the same message.  I think those guys are probably gonna be up there awhile though, as they've been pretty busy explaining of late why they keep getting caught with prostitutes or with their hands down some kid's pants.  Also, don't neglect to notice how a huge number of products sold today are packaged with sex appeal that sells, including the entire media industry.  Why is it okay to hire actors and models and newscasters based primarily on their sexual attractiveness, but not okay to strip for money or to engage in pro dom work?  Is there actually a difference?

I think Homo sapiens is hardwired for sexual commerce.  Given that food for sex trades are well documented in wild primates, the hardwiring may go even farther back, taxonomically speaking.  I don't think arguing about it or protesting it is likely to change the fundamental biology or behavior of the species.  Evolution is a harsher mistress than I am ever likely to be. 


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/22/2010 12:28:22 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		You keep going back and forth- is it just the money or is it other utility?

I said in my first reply that what matters to me is being USED and made USEFUL. So yes, I am that elusive sub you claim you can't find.

If you just want to limit it to MONEY, well no I enjoy serving for more than that, but I know others who only do the money thing.

Let me make it simple for you- if you can imagine it, people are DOING it and very happy about it. I get that you don't quite understand the kink world is bigger than the one in your head yet, but it is.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/22/2010 1:03:09 AM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		I assume that anyone who wants to be with me feels that I will add value to hir life, and I want people who add value to mine.

I recently posted an ad elsewhere offering what is, in essence, some bartering of skills for time. I am going to have foot surgery again. I am going to need help with housework. There are plenty of people who would like the chance to do housework naked or in panties, perhaps with a running commentary on how silly penises look in panties, or on how nice his ass looks when he bends over to pick up the laundry basket, or the occasional smack or fondle as the spirit moves me. We would both have much more enjoyment out of the process than if I just hired a cleaner.  I'm all for making someone else's life happy at the same time I make mine happy. (grin)

Now, I am hoping that I make a friend in the process. But at this point I care less about the finer points of friend compatibility than "will he show up every week and take care of the laundry?" And I am being open about that, and so far I'm not having anyone who is getting indignant about it. One guy admitted frankly that he wants to get in my pants. To which I replied that I have sex with my friends, and while I'm not closing the door on his desire, neither am I promising anything; we meet, we see, and he is fine with that.  Will I potentially trade sex for getting the housework done? Quite possibly. What the hell, there are some who would say that since I do not work, I am trading my skills as a cook and household manager and sex for support. Or that my husband is trading his income for my skill set. We work together to go forward in life and love, I say. And while I won't leave him if he can't work, he knows and I know that if he hadn't been willing to work....or I wasn't as devoted to making our life run as well as it can, and willing to work as well...we probably would have seen that as a huge red flag of character and this never would have gotten off the ground.


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/22/2010 1:19:37 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Still, this doesn't mean a person can't postulate guidelines and relationship target objectives.

...Must say that I'm stunned by how many folks seem like the idea of transactional relationships.
Cloudboy,

I think what irked me personally was the tone of the 'guidelines' more than the content-it's one thing to say 'I want to be in a relationship where I'm valued for x,y,z so that is what I will look for' and another thing to say *repeatedly* that any relationship not fulfilling those parameters is invalid and 'people should not' engage in them. I counted-he used the words should/shouldn't nine times in the OP. That's a bit rich.

Jeff (two ff's) said above somewhere that he judges relationships on an individual basis, based on the happiness of those involved. SN has repeatedly said that he can't imagine such a relationship being valid-judging them all invalid in one fell swoop. That's also a bit rich.

Are utilitarian relationships for everyone? No. Are they for the OP, or you, or me? No. Does that mean the OP is qualified to tell other people what they should and should not do with regards to their relationships? Nu-uh.


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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/22/2010 4:36:18 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer.  Evolution is a harsher mistress than I am ever likely to be. 


Oh, I don't know. You are *quite* harsh, Lady N. I reckon you could give Mistress Evo a run for her money.

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RE: An interesting piece of advice - do you agree with it? - 5/22/2010 4:52:38 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Again, very intelligent response. I like the way you look at the things LadyNTrainer.
My advice was actually that people don't get in a RELATIONSHIP where they are not desired as persons. Since a session with the pro-domme is not a relationship, this could be an exception. I admit I put it a bit awkwardly at first. Actually pro domination isn't bad in itself, it is bad if it is used as a replacement for a real relationship.
As long as the relationships between provider and client are clearly separated from personal relationships, all is cool. The problem is that in the D/s it can sometimes get blurry, and also, as you said, it's unethical to play the lifestyle domme, and after some time start asking for tributes.



Your advice lacks insight and knowledge. Why would anyone take it?


Again, speak for yourself.

What he's saying makes perfect sense. I personally would recommend against engaging in any kind of pro-domination (or prostitution, which everyone knows isn't that far off)) because of the mutual objectification that occurs necessarily.





I was speaking for myself. It was a question. Get it?

In one statement you tell me to speak for myself and then recommed against mutual objectification?

Who the fuck are YOU?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 140
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