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Elisabella -> Statue of Liberty (5/25/2010 11:12:42 PM)

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


Above is a portion of the inscription on the Statue of Liberty, which was given to the US in 1886. It seems especially fitting seeing the amount of illegal immigration threads.

The US has changed a lot since 1886. The US population in 1880 was 16% of what it is now, and most of the population lived east of the Mississippi. The late 19th century saw a shift from the majority of the population living in rural areas to the majority living in urban areas. Non-agricultural jobs were centered around the production of goods and the building of the nation's infrastructure, pure 'customer service' jobs really didn't exist. There was no Social Security, no Medicare, no food stamps, laws outlawing child labor outright weren't passed until the 20th century.

With that in mind:

Do you think the above should reflect current US immigration policy?

Do you think it ever reflected US immigration policy, or was it poetic lip service?

Do you think there should be limits on immigration to the US, in any form? By limits I mean anything - a limit on the number of people allowed to come, language requirements, education/job skill requirements, criminal background checks, etc.

Do you think the US is still the 'land of opportunity' where anyone willing to work hard enough can succeed?




Real0ne -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/25/2010 11:38:03 PM)



yep that commemorates the official beginning of the democracy in this country and the words mocking the republic.






tazzygirl -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 1:43:55 AM)

hi Elisabella. There is more to that story.

quote:

Emma Lazarus wrote her poem, The New Colossus, about the Statue of Liberty shortly after its dedication in 1886. She passed away the next year. Her poem was inscribed on a bronze plaque at the base of the statue in 1903.

Emma Lazarus' famous words, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" may now be indelibly engraved into the collective American memory, but they did not do so overnight. In fact, Lazarus' sonnet to the Statue of Liberty was hardly noticed until after her death, when a patron of the New York arts found it tucked into a small portfolio of poems written in 1883 to raise money for the construction of the Statue of Liberty's pedestal. The patron, Georgina Schuyler, was struck by the poem and arranged to have its last five lines become a permanent part of the statue itself. More than twenty years later, children's textbooks began to include the sonnet and Irving Berlin wrote it into a Broadway musical. By 1945, the engraved poem was relocated (including all fourteen lines) to be placed over the Statue of Liberty's main entrance.

Today the words themselves may be remembered more than the poet herself, but in Lazarus' time just the opposite was true. As a member of New York's social elite, Emma Lazarus enjoyed a privileged childhood, nurtured by her family to become a respected poet recognized throughout the country for verses about her Jewish heritage. A reader and a dreamer, Lazarus had the good fortune to claim Ralph Waldo Emerson as a pen-pal and mentor. Before her death at age 37, Lazarus grew from a sheltered girl writing flowery prose about Classical Antiquity to a sophisticated New York aristocrat troubled by the violent injustices suffered by Jews in Eastern Europe.

In "The New Colossus," Lazarus contrasts the soon-to-be installed symbol of the United States with what many consider the perfect symbol of the Greek and Roman era, the Colossus of Rhodes. Her comparison proved appropriate, for Bartholdi himself created the Statue of Liberty with the well-known Colossus in mind. What Bartholdi did not intend, however, was for the Statue of Liberty to become a symbol of welcome for thousands of European immigrants. As political propaganda for France, the Statue of Liberty was first intended to be a path of enlightenment for the countries of Europe still battling tyranny and oppression. Lazarus' words, however, turned that idea on its head: the Statue of Liberty would forever on be considered a beacon of welcome for immigrants leaving their mother countries.

Just as Lazarus' poem gave new meaning to the statue, the statue emitted a new ideal for the United States. Liberty did not only mean freedom from the aristocracy of Britain that led the American colonists to the Revolutionary War. Liberty also meant freedom to come to the United States and create a new life without religious and ethnic persecution. Through Lazarus' poem, the Statue of Liberty gained a new name: She would now become the "Mother of Exiles," torch in hand to lead her new children to American success and happiness.


http://www.literacyrules.com/WebDesign/110webs/angel/angel.htm




Moonhead -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 1:49:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Do you think the US is still the 'land of opportunity' where anyone willing to work hard enough can succeed?

Was it ever?




pahunkboy -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 1:58:12 AM)

I think the  country is close to a critical flash point where it re-defines itself.

For ME the US is opportunity.     I am very fortunate.

There tho is alot of discontent- globalization is pushed on us= and no hurry for me to be ruled out of Brussels.

I am cynical, but oddly optimistic about the US. Namely the valley I live in.




Louve00 -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 3:49:00 AM)

Tazzy, so many times, admidst sarcasm and utter disbelief of what people say, I learn from you.  Thank you for sharing that with Elisabella. [:)]




eyesopened -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:02:03 AM)

I don't think we need to change our immigration policy or add any new laws regarding immigration.  I think we should strictly enforce the ones we have.

My grandfather came to this country, an immigrant escaping what he felt was limited opportunity in his own country.  He didn't get food stamps or welfare.  He didn't sneak in.  He didn't break any laws.  He learned English which in itself is humorous story, and then he worked his ass off and went to school at night.  The proudest day of his life was when he took the oath of citizenship.  He refused to speak Swedish again in his home. 

I can't think of anyone I know who is against immigrants coming to this country in search of their own ideals.  The blending of cultures and languages made this country unique and in my opinion, strong.

What I see now is the opposite.  No one wants to obey the laws, learn the language or blend their cultures into what we refered to as the 'melting pot'.  People seem to be more interested in being divided into hyphanated groups of victims.

If my neighbor knocked on my door and needed a place to stay, I would take her in and do what I could to help.  If my neighbor broke out my window and climbed in on her own, I'd call the cops.




pahunkboy -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:10:48 AM)

exerpt- Bob Chapman.

We Are now closing in on the next planned world war as a result. When and
where we can only guess, but it surely is on the way, the same way it was in the late
1930s. War is a distraction and it succeeds in culling the population. It is also a coverup
for massive financial and economic problems that have resulted from the financial
elite looting the system.
The system is not being fixed and deliberately so. The elitists do not want it
fixed. They want a collapse. This is the only way they can force people to accept world
government.
The groundwork was laid after WWII, as it was right after WWI. The 1960s
brought inflation and on August 15,1971 the gold standard was abandoned. That is all
that was needed to get the game underway. That inflation lasted some 50 years and is
in the process of coming to an end. Many say they do know where it will end, but if
they studied history they’d know exactly where it would end. It will end with the
deliberate collapse of the financial and economic system and war, the way it always
has. This time the conductor is the Federal Reserve, which is currently on the way to
being a financial and monetary monopoly with the assistance of our well paid off
representatives and senators. The massive reflation you have witnessed over the past
almost three years is a steppingstone toward a final solution and world government. As
a result we see collapses in some areas and booms in other areas. In the end all
markets will fall, some more than others. Debt overwhelms the system worldwide,
which is a form of perpetual entrapment.
No currency will be able to withstand the onslaught. In the final analysis only
gold and silver will be left standing. Currently, as soon as the most recent credit
expansion runs its course, and that should be by yearend, another reflationary wave
will be upon us, that is unless those who are controlling this debacle, decide that this is
when we slip into an irretrievable deflationary depression.
http://theinternationalforecaster.com/





Louve00 -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:21:11 AM)

I agree eyesopened.  What I seem to be seeing is the easy interchange between legal and illegal.  To me, there is quite a difference between someone wanting to be here, but not want to go thru the bother, and money, and time of becoming a legal immigrant, and those that come here under the radar, not wanting to go about it legally...just concerned about their need.  I am not for illegal immigration.  I think those people DO need to go through the process.  I cringe inside when I hear people talking about how we should be denying legal immigration to people who are willing to bother, spend the money and the time to take the test and become legal.  There's a big difference between the two despite how people feel about it. 




Termyn8or -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:24:19 AM)

Hunky, you can let Chapman tell you how to wipe your ass if you want. But not me.

But on to the point. You might as well start hating me now, because I don't pull punches, and what I say next will probably put hair on your chest, curl it, and take it off al in one fell swoop.

Given the current conditions in the world, especially the US, I think it is time to tear down the statue of liberty.

Sorry, but I am a realist.

T




DomYngBlk -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:24:50 AM)

Even the smallest look at population trends over the next decades leads to the only conclusion that we will need to have mass immigration into this country to keep up the economy at present or hopefully advanced rates. The attached chart shows the growth in citizens older than 65 estimated out to 2030. The amount of citizens in this category will be almost double by 2030. There are two outcomes of that. One, a lessened workforce that will require an influx of workers so that even current employment rates can be met. Two, the consequent loss in population over the decade or so after 2030 as this population dies. We are not currently replacing ourselves in births. We need now and in the future an influx of immigrants to make sure that the United States stands strong for years to come.
http://www.census.gov/population/projections/PressTab3.xls




pahunkboy -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:28:01 AM)

Term my buddy  'realist.

Count up for me a trillion.

It can be posts or bottles of soda.


Start now please.





Termyn8or -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:29:46 AM)

True Dom, but that theory only works if there are jobs. Have you looked for a job lately ? I got word yesterday, that my job as I know it ends in August, and I have no idea what to do as of yet. Now mind you that I can build you a house, even a car, and up until digital broadcasting, a TV. I am not without skill. But to turn skill into money, someone has to have the money to spend.

T




Louve00 -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:31:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Even the smallest look at population trends over the next decades leads to the only conclusion that we will need to have mass immigration into this country to keep up the economy at present or hopefully advanced rates. The attached chart shows the growth in citizens older than 65 estimated out to 2030. The amount of citizens in this category will be almost double by 2030. There are two outcomes of that. One, a lessened workforce that will require an influx of workers so that even current employment rates can be met. Two, the consequent loss in population over the decade or so after 2030 as this population dies. We are not currently replacing ourselves in births. We need now and in the future an influx of immigrants to make sure that the United States stands strong for years to come.
http://www.census.gov/population/projections/PressTab3.xls



And thats another way to look at it.  [sm=agree.gif]




DomYngBlk -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:32:01 AM)

Assumption is that we won't remain in Depression forever. However, I am not sure that matters. Aging population combined with low birth rates. All of the Northern Hemisphere is pretty much the same. There will have to be a population shift from the south to the north for the Western world to remain the Western world.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:36:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Even the smallest look at population trends over the next decades leads to the only conclusion that we will need to have mass immigration into this country to keep up the economy at present or hopefully advanced rates. The attached chart shows the growth in citizens older than 65 estimated out to 2030. The amount of citizens in this category will be almost double by 2030. There are two outcomes of that. One, a lessened workforce that will require an influx of workers so that even current employment rates can be met. Two, the consequent loss in population over the decade or so after 2030 as this population dies. We are not currently replacing ourselves in births. We need now and in the future an influx of immigrants to make sure that the United States stands strong for years to come.
http://www.census.gov/population/projections/PressTab3.xls



And thats another way to look at it.  [sm=agree.gif]


It is as large a question about National Security as anything else. We are an aging population. If we needed to meet a global challenge at this time that would require all able bodies for war and another similar group of able bodies to build that machinery. Could we do it? Today maybe, 20 years from now without an influx of able bodies? I am not so sure.




eyesopened -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:39:35 AM)

Is there a reason why those immigrants cannot be added by going through the legal process?  The quotas are flexible, the law is not.

Once again.  If I were feeble and some do-gooder knocked on my door and offered to help me, that would be a blessing.  If someone jimmied the lock and broke into my house and started putting up the laundry... would I be a bitch to still call the cops?   If I were having a heart attack, and my neighbor busted down the door, gave me cpr, called the EMTs and stayed with me until they got there... would that give her the right to move her stuff into my house and challenge me to kick her out?

Just askin.




Phoenixpower -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:39:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Even the smallest look at population trends over the next decades leads to the only conclusion that we will need to have mass immigration into this country to keep up the economy at present or hopefully advanced rates. The attached chart shows the growth in citizens older than 65 estimated out to 2030. The amount of citizens in this category will be almost double by 2030. There are two outcomes of that. One, a lessened workforce that will require an influx of workers so that even current employment rates can be met. Two, the consequent loss in population over the decade or so after 2030 as this population dies. We are not currently replacing ourselves in births. We need now and in the future an influx of immigrants to make sure that the United States stands strong for years to come. http://www.census.gov/population/projections/PressTab3.xls



And thats another way to look at it.  [sm=agree.gif]


One thing you have in common with Germany....there we have since years the debate about our aging population and very low birth rate...




pahunkboy -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:40:23 AM)

There is good news.

The depression will last only 15 years.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/26/2010 4:48:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Is there a reason why those immigrants cannot be added by going through the legal process?  The quotas are flexible, the law is not.

Once again.  If I were feeble and some do-gooder knocked on my door and offered to help me, that would be a blessing.  If someone jimmied the lock and broke into my house and started putting up the laundry... would I be a bitch to still call the cops?   If I were having a heart attack, and my neighbor busted down the door, gave me cpr, called the EMTs and stayed with me until they got there... would that give her the right to move her stuff into my house and challenge me to kick her out?

Just askin.


I wouldn't disagree. But any of the immigration that we need is going to be a messy thing that We as born Americans aren't going to jump up and down and love. Consider when your Grandfather came and the last great influxes of the late 1900's. There were riots in many cities between groups and tensions with the Born Americans of that age.

I guess I worry that there seems to be such a movement afoot to hold onto what is percieved is our Founding Fathers values or intentions. It is a futile struggle. This country will change and has changed with all these years. The best we can do is accept and work with the framework that they laid down and try to do the best we can as a Nation. At some point Spanish will be the legal language. I think we better get used to it




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