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Yes, this is what fools think. I'm not one of them. I said quite specifically that I may assess absolutely nothing wrong with the submission... it may come with a great deal of strength and integrity, it may be driven by motives which are laudable by own values. In short, I may approve of it in every possible way.

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*nods* In the end, it is things like commitment, integrity, strength, compassion, etc. that will determine the quality of that which is offered -- on both sides of the kneel.

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Heh, yes. I agree. Semi-dominant personalities are threatened such a thing. If you knew more about my background, you'd know that it's laughable to think I would be bothered by it.

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Again, you are misreading me. I quite specifically said (and said again above), that it all may be quite laudable. But truly, aren't I allowed to prefer vanilla and you chocolate without a debate on which is "better"?

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That still doesn't change my preference though. Of course, as I noted, what undoubtedly WOULD change my preference is falling in love with a girl like you who is in the "by orientation" camp.

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Which STILL doesn't change the fact that in the here and now, the "by orientation" submissives don't generate "domly urges" in me. At this very moment in time, I do not resonate with them.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok..... if you say so...... It's a heartwarming story.....with a happy ending!

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Raven said:
i just want to jump in here and say that this bit isn't accurate.  In my experience natural alpha men often are actually driven even more to Own and control a woman - it is that sense that they are "Masters of their own Universe."

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But that's just the thing Raven. If someone is truly seriously dominant, then they are ALWAYS masters of their own universe. Nothing can change that. For exactly that reason, they become a lot more flexible about the outward control they need to exhibit. When you are no longer grasping at the reins of power because you know for a fact you HAVE them, you tend to get a lot more relaxed. I draw this observation from my pesonal interactions with people who are seriously and demonstrably alpha (let's arbitrarily say "people who have been in a leadership position over 1k or more people at a time -- a measure I myself do not meet). There are, as always exceptions to this. Larry Ellison, for instance, has that whole bad-boy, rockstar thing going on. But that is the exception, not the rule.

I personally suspect sampling error on your part. If the sample set you are looking at is "masters", then of course you'll see it this way. The vast majority of seriously alpha people, however, are not even remotely engaged in BDSM.

I also have to disagree with your assertion that the gorean board show a populace skewed towards the truly alpha males. There's way to much bluster and bravado over there for me to read it that way. Some are, I grant. But about the same ratio as I see both here and in the vanilla populace.