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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 12:59:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one aspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.


Uh... This sounds... not exactly right.

Actually, it's precisely correct. Textbook, even.

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:00:44 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I have to say that the idea of 'entitlement' on the slaves part can be very destructive to an M/s relationship. As a slave, the only thing I am entitled to is to not be intentionally harmed. After that, everything else is a privilege that he decides if I get it or not.

Letting go of expectations and feelings of entitlement can be extremely freeing and bring great peace. However, this is not a concept that originates with internal enslavement. I learned the most about letting go of expectations by reading about Buddhism.

Exactly.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:23:19 PM   
leadership527


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And it logically follows from that whole train of thought that entitlement is pretty much a bad idea for the master too... or anyone else for that matter.

I'm not so sure about the "expectation" part though. Carol "expects" a great many things out of me. Those "expectations" are entirely reasonable seeing as they are based upon both things that I tell her and her own long years of observation of me. I sincerely doubt that she'd be my slave if she did not expect those things. One of those things that Carol (quite reasonably) expects is that I want a great deal more for her than to "not intentionally harm her". I want her life to be fulfilling and complete and wonderful at all of Maslow's levels.

It would be kind of ridiculous for Carol to NOT expect that. I've been saying it and doing it for 15 years now. She does not, however, feel entitled to that.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:31:07 PM   
sweetgirlserves


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Wow... thank you for making that dilineation leadership.... that really helps me to clarify a few things for myself. My Master takes great care of me and i struggle with the fact that i've come to expect that he will.... but now i understand... He's the one that sets that expectation because he has shown me consistently for a year now that he will by that kind of Master to me... and it's fine for me to expect it now because that is what He has taught me.... but it's not okay to feel entitled to such treatment... and i don't.

Very important distinction there.... thanks again.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:33:24 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

And it logically follows from that whole train of thought that entitlement is pretty much a bad idea for the master too... or anyone else for that matter.

I'm not so sure about the "expectation" part though. Carol "expects" a great many things out of me. Those "expectations" are entirely reasonable seeing as they are based upon both things that I tell her and her own long years of observation of me. I sincerely doubt that she'd be my slave if she did not expect those things. One of those things that Carol (quite reasonably) expects is that I want a great deal more for her than to "not intentionally harm her". I want her life to be fulfilling and complete and wonderful at all of Maslow's levels.

It would be kind of ridiculous for Carol to NOT expect that. I've been saying it and doing it for 15 years now. She does not, however, feel entitled to that.


I agree wholeheartedly. When it comes to entitlement, the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that they tend to equate getting rid of entitlements with getting rid of expectations.
It is not healthy, and not even possible to get rid of your expectations


< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/30/2010 1:35:59 PM >


_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:35:41 PM   
leadership527


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You're welcome sweetgirl. I might also add that I "expect" a lot of things out of Carol... her obedience among them. I do not, however, feel entitled to any of it. Whatever I have (love, obedience, whatever) I have because I have been able to earn it and continue to earn it every day. And here's another thing that I expect. Should I, in the future, stop legitimately earning the things she gives me, then she won't give them to me anymore.

Somehow, in the BDSM community, it seems the doms get a free ride. What I am certain of is that if I stopped doing the things Carol expects, she would stop doing the things I expect. All of that makes sense since what we're talking about here is a complete overhaul of our relationship.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 1:38:49 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

You're welcome sweetgirl. I might also add that I "expect" a lot of things out of Carol... her obedience among them. I do not, however, feel entitled to any of it. Whatever I have (love, obedience, whatever) I have because I have been able to earn it and continue to earn it every day. And here's another thing that I expect. Should I, in the future, stop legitimately earning the things she gives me, then she won't give them to me anymore.

Somehow, in the BDSM community, it seems the doms get a free ride. What I am certain of is that if I stopped doing the things Carol expects, she would stop doing the things I expect. All of that makes sense since what we're talking about here is a complete overhaul of our relationship.


Again, fantastically explained, and I agree completely.


_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 2:31:37 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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The thing is understanding the negatives emotions and drives that stem from not being in control of desire, expectations or the feeling of entitlement. Sincerely, I do not like the word entitlement very much. There is generally a negative mentality of "You Owe Me" associated/connected with it.

I perfer to deal with the individual issues on a case by case basis, given whatever scope of conditions and circumstances going on. The mental composition of people tends to vary, even if it is a matter of theme and variation.

There is a big difference between "want" vs "need", there is nothing wrong with desire itself, however desire if it goes unchecked can lead to bad or harmful behavior, even more so when it becomes hurtful towards others. This is not a good thing to have in any relationship.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 2:40:51 PM   
leadership527


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Just as a slightly different spin on the word "entitled"... Carol and I were discussing this thought over lunch and we both felt that the other person was entitled to more than what we were able to provide. Which gets me down to a different line of reasoning. Is it really about "entitlement" or is about the difference between giving into one's relationship and taking out of it.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 4:21:50 PM   
porcelaine


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leadership527,

quote:

I do not, however, feel entitled to any of it. Whatever I have (love, obedience, whatever) I have because I have been able to earn it and continue to earn it every day. And here's another thing that I expect. Should I, in the future, stop legitimately earning the things she gives me, then she won't give them to me anymore.


I'm just gonna shut up and smile because you know what I'm thinking. *lol*

quote:

Somehow, in the BDSM community, it seems the doms get a free ride.


Being appreciated is a nice feeling.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 5:04:03 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one aspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.


Uh... This sounds... not exactly right.

Actually, it's precisely correct. Textbook, even.


I don't think you're really qualified to say one way or another what's 'precisely correct' about Buddhism.

Maybe if you cited some sources, I could take you seriously. (Did Buddha write a textbook?)

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/30/2010 5:21:43 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 5:11:18 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I have to say that the idea of 'entitlement' on the slaves part can be very destructive to an M/s relationship. As a slave, the only thing I am entitled to is to not be intentionally harmed. After that, everything else is a privilege that he decides if I get it or not.

Letting go of expectations and feelings of entitlement can be extremely freeing and bring great peace. However, this is not a concept that originates with internal enslavement. I learned the most about letting go of expectations by reading about Buddhism.

Exactly.


http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/2/western.php

The ultimate postmodern irony of today is the strange exchange between Europe and Asia: at the very moment when "European" technology and capitalism are triumphing worldwide at the level of the "economic infrastructure, the Judeo-Christian legacy is threatened at the level of "ideological superstructure" in the European space itself by New Age "Asiatic" thought, which, in its different guises ranging from "Western Buddhism" to different "Taos," is establishing itself as the hegemonic ideology of global capitalism.1 Therein resides the highest speculative identity of opposites in today's global civilization: although "Western Buddhism" presents itself as the remedy against the stressful tension of capitalist dynamics, allowing us to uncouple and retain inner peace and Gelassenheit, it actually functions as its perfect ideological supplement. One should mention here the well-known concept of "future shock" that describes how people are no longer psychologically able to cope with the dazzling rhythm of technological development and the social changes that accompany it. Things simply move too fast, and before one can accustom oneself to an invention, it has already been supplanted by a new one, so that one more and more lacks the most elementary "cognitive mapping." The recourse to Taoism or Buddhism offers a way out of this predicament that definitely works better than the desperate escape into old traditions. Instead of trying to cope with the accelerating rhythm of techno-logical progress and social changes, one should rather renounce the very endeavor to retain control over what goes on, rejecting it as the expression of the modern logic of domination. One should, instead, "let oneself go," drift along, while retaining an inner distance and indifference toward the mad dance of accelerated process, a distance based on the insight that all this social and technological upheaval is ultimately just a non-substantial proliferation of semblances that do not really concern the innermost kernel of our being. One is almost tempted to resuscitate the old infamous Marxist cliché of religion as the "opium of the people," as the imaginary supplement to terrestrial misery. The "Western Buddhist" meditative stance is arguably the most efficient way for us to fully participate in capitalist dynamics while retaining the appearance of mental sanity. If Max Weber were alive today, he would definitely write a second, supplementary, volume to his Protestant Ethic, entitled The Taoist Ethic and the Spirit of Global Capitalism.2

Nowhere is this fetishist logic more evident than apropos of Tibet, one of the central references of the post-Christian "spiritual" imaginary. Today, Tibet more and more plays the role of such a fantasmatic Thing, of a jewel which, when one approaches it too much, turns into the excremental object. It is a commonplace to claim that the fascination exerted by Tibet on the Western imagination, especially on the broad public in the US, provides an exemplary case of the "colonization of the imaginary." It reduces the actual Tibet to a screen for the projection of Western ideological fantasies. Indeed, the very inconsistency of this image of Tibet, with its direct coincidences of opposites, seems to bear witness to its fantasmatic status.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 7:15:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one aspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.

Uh... This sounds... not exactly right.

Actually, it's precisely correct. Textbook, even.

I don't think you're really qualified to say one way or another what's 'precisely correct' about Buddhism.

Maybe if you cited some sources, I could take you seriously. (Did Buddha write a textbook?)

You could try doing a little reading. It's hardly an obscure subject.

Shelves of books will all tell you the same thing. How you take it is entirely up to you.

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 9:47:55 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

I've probably read, I dunno, a hundred or so of porcelaine's comments and she strikes me as one of the most conscientiously self-aware and self-actualized individuals I have ever encountered. Far from coming across as brainwashed, she has answers because she has given it a great deal of thought. And she makes a very interesting read for someone like myself who operates quite differently. Sorry if this point has already been made. Or if the "brainwashed" comment was ignored as obviously foolish. I just had a strong reaction to reading that because my impression of her is quite different.


Porcelaine is definitely intense. I read her posts with fascination as well. It seems she knows how to live a rich life in ways I could not.

I liked your image of the tight rope.

(in reply to Lucienne)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/30/2010 10:07:40 PM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one aspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.


Uh... This sounds... not exactly right.

Actually, it's precisely correct. Textbook, even.


I don't think you're really qualified to say one way or another what's 'precisely correct' about Buddhism.

Maybe if you cited some sources, I could take you seriously.


How do you know her qualifications?  She could be a world-renowned Buddhist scholar.  Or she could be a practicing Buddhist who has lived her entire life according to Buddhist philosphy.  What is your basis for dismissing her qualifications?

Saying "Maybe if you cited some sources, I could take you seriously" makes you sound arrogant and condescending.  You could have simply said, "That's an interesting POV.  Do you have any sources that I can look to for further reading?"  But that would have been too civil.  


_____________________________

"The thing about smart mother fuckers is that sometimes, they sound like crazy mother fuckers to stupid mother fuckers".
-Robert Kirkman, The Walking Dead

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/31/2010 7:39:37 AM   
Musicmystery


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For what it's worth, I taught Philosophy and World Religions at my former college.

But yeah, it was an opening to an argument, not a discussion. Bottom line, though, it's a principle well established, and any serious read will bring one across it. The recent PBS movie, The Buddha, addressed it as well. Of course we have desires. It's what we do with them that matters.

Nor is the goal "nothingness," but rather to clear the surface to understand what lies beneath. For any that have touched even a piece of this, it's far from nothing.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/31/2010 9:40:00 AM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

For what it's worth, I taught Philosophy and World Religions at my former college.

But yeah, it was an opening to an argument, not a discussion.



Well there you go, Silence8.  She's a professor of Philosophy and World Religions.  Sounds like reasonable qualifications to me. 

And like i keep trying to show you, your response was argumentative and attacking.  You made no effort to try to understand or to discuss.

i still don't understand how an intelligent person can't grasp such an obvious point.  On this forum, you are rude and you display poor social skills.  Moreover, you were rude to a fellow academic.  Whatever happened to professional courtesy? 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/31/2010 9:24:04 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

For what it's worth, I taught Philosophy and World Religions at my former college.

But yeah, it was an opening to an argument, not a discussion.



Well there you go, Silence8.  She's a professor of Philosophy and World Religions.  Sounds like reasonable qualifications to me. 

And like i keep trying to show you, your response was argumentative and attacking.  You made no effort to try to understand or to discuss.

i still don't understand how an intelligent person can't grasp such an obvious point.  On this forum, you are rude and you display poor social skills.  Moreover, you were rude to a fellow academic.  Whatever happened to professional courtesy? 



Look, all I said is it didn't sound right. I'm still not that convinced. The original guy could have backed it up a bit -- quotes would go a long way, as well as references (which apparently aren't forthcoming.)

I immediately went searching around for articles on Buddhism (with an 'h', notably... that didn't help my initial suspicion) and didn't find anything regarding entitlement. Not that's it's the end-all, obviously, but the Wikipedia article didn't mention entitlement even once.

Also the 'she' you're mentioning I believe to be a 'he'... so everyone messes up this and that.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/31/2010 10:54:58 PM   
porcelaine


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Silence8,

I've never encountered Buddhist teachings on entitlement as mentioned. However, they do go into detail in discussing their perspective on Ego and Desire. Both would include the previous subject as well. In terms of nothingness it is truthfully No-Thing instead. Osho put forth some interesting ideas on the topic that can be easier to grasp, particularly if one lacks a foundation in Buddhism or Hinduism. I'll admit he is viewed by controversy by some, but that's true of most at one time. You'll see similar ideas put forth by Deepak Chopra. For an overview I'd probably suggest reviewing The Seven Laws of Spiritual Success. He includes an overview on his website. The Law of Intention and Desire and The Law of Detachment would fill in a few gaps as it relates to the discussion. Hinduism is the mother and Buddhism draws quite a few influences from it. I prefer to go to the source whenever possible.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 6/1/2010 1:18:27 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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Does being entitled to be bent over and fucked up the ass until drenched in a pool of sweat count? Hey, I'm nice Guy, I'm considerate enough to pull the hair hard while riding ass. Might even pull out a pillow for their face while holding them in a full nelson. If they are really lucky I'll give them a good choke hold around the neck that they are fully entitled to. I might tease them with a flogger for a bit, tracing it up and down inside their legs and around the thighs down to the ankles.. but in the end I'm giving them the f'ing flogging they are entitled to. I might be considerate enough to use a spreader bar to help them keep their legs spread open. Bad Girls Ain't Entitled to Spreader Bars, flogging, or getting fucked period though.



_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 240
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