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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 6:47:37 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

KnightofMists I am not that stupid as you think, and there is certain connection between entitlement and desire.


that is a presumption of my thoughts which is rather amusing and more reflects your own insecurities than it does my own thoughts. In fact, I would say that I don't consider you stupid only not as smart as you think you are.

quote:


For example desire is when she desires that you treat her certain way.
Entitlement is when she thinks she deserves to be treated certain way by you.


that doesn't make them close to the same thing as you stated in an earlier post. It indicates that there can be a relationship between desire and entitlement. But the distinctions of the two are significant and as result there is considerable implications because of those differences. But because it can have a relationship doesn't mean it will have a relationship.

quote:


The only way to reduce entitlement to zero is to reduce her self-worth to zero. Because only worthless beings deserve nothing.
However, this is impossible. She will always have some self-worth and even if she thinks she isn't entitled to anything, she will feel as she is.

The connection between entitlement and desire is in the fact that she usually desires the same things she feels she is entitled to
and these two feelings (desire and entitlement) usually mix together in her psyche.

So finally, if she really feels this bliss and freedom, it is probably because desire is removed, not entitlement.
Desire is more basic primary feeling. Entitlement is derived from desire and self-worth.

So actual removal of entitlement, (if ever really happens) comes not from removing self-worth, but from removing desire.


so.... one can't have a state of bliss and freedom without a lack of desire to have it in the first place? Maybe I was wrong.... maybe you are lot less intelligent that you think you are.

I have to ditto Lucky here....

quote:

Which proves you don't understand most eastern philosophies any more than you have shown to understand western ones.

It's very impressive how you seriously believe you actually understand SO much when it's so painfully obviously the contrary.


it's the lack of entitlements and expectations that many have found their bliss and freedom.... and not the lack of desires. if only you where as smart and knowledgeable as you think you are. Maybe someday you will find enlightenment, but I suspect not today.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 6:56:07 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

it's the lack of entitlements and expectations that many have found their bliss and freedom.... and not the lack of desires. if only you where as smart and knowledgeable as you think you are. Maybe someday you will find enlightenment, but I suspect not today.


What about Buddhists, they specifically strive to achieve lack of desire in order to feel bliss. However I don't agree with Buddism, but this is their philosophy, and many Buddhists are happy because they removed their desires.


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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:02:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		Life isn't about what we deserve, it's about what we choose for ourselves.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:03:03 PM   
VideoAdminZeta


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/26/2008
From: the darkest recesses of your twisted minds
Status: offline 		Quick note to the thread in general:

Posters have expressed gratitude for this conversation, but the discussion has also been contentious at times.  Therefore, please post in English, so everyone knows what is being said to everyone else.  Thank you.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:09:20 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

it's the lack of entitlements and expectations that many have found their bliss and freedom.... and not the lack of desires. if only you where as smart and knowledgeable as you think you are. Maybe someday you will find enlightenment, but I suspect not today.


What about Buddhists, they specifically strive to achieve lack of desire in order to feel bliss. However I don't agree with Buddism, but this is their philosophy, and many Buddhists are happy because they removed their desires.



you lack of knowledge is showing here but it is understandable since many out of ignorance make this assumption about Buddism. Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one asspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:13:36 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

it's the lack of entitlements and expectations that many have found their bliss and freedom.... and not the lack of desires. if only you where as smart and knowledgeable as you think you are. Maybe someday you will find enlightenment, but I suspect not today.


What about Buddhists, they specifically strive to achieve lack of desire in order to feel bliss. However I don't agree with Buddism, but this is their philosophy, and many Buddhists are happy because they removed their desires.



you lack of knowledge is showing here but it is understandable since many out of ignorance make this assumption about Buddism. Desire is a much more complex word within Buddism. In one asspect of desire that is perceived as a negative to the buddist is the desire that becomes fixation or um entitlement. It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.


Uh... This sounds... not exactly right.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:15:29 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

It's not a desire to be devoid of desires but not to allow desires to translated into fixations or entitlements.


I think you are trying to use Buddhism just to support your theory that removal of entitlements causes bliss.

But I have a question for you -  are you entitled to your slave's obedience?
If you are, why is entitlement good for you, and bad for them?


_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:17:41 PM   
porcelaine


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Status: offline 		SocratesNot,

Interesting feedback. Here's my thoughts:

quote:

feelings of belonging to your Master, being loved, cherished for what you are, being useful to him etc


The wonderful thing about being who I am is the full acceptance of what that means. I don't need to dress it up or down to make him feel comfortable or at home with his masculinity.

quote:

elimination of stress by removing the need to worry about making your own decisions


Sorry. This didn't go away completely. Much of that relates to my natural independence and lifestyle. I'd grown accustomed to handling my own affairs. I probably had more challenges in this area than others. Particularly when it came to money, career, and residence.

quote:

the bliss that you feel as a result that you are not entitled to anything (reasons why I described in previous post), in this situation you don't expect anything, everything that comes you receive like a treat, like a free gift - adventure and excitement, you are never sure what comes next because you are not the "driver" of your life. You follow where he leads, and this is an adventure in itself


I have definite feelings about expectations and entitlement where slavery is concerned. In regard to the dreamy picture you've painted, sorry, that's not my reality. Maybe someone else has had that Hallmark moment. I did have a lot of internal struggles, tears, frustrations, trust issues to overcome, barriers and walls to let go of, and much more before I could fully appreciate what slavery entailed.

I will say this. Following where he leads is wonderful as long as you don't have the blind leading its own.

quote:

excitement about having to obey always - it becomes so easy and automatic, when he gives you command you can relax as if you are on autopilot your body follows his direction almost of its own volition


Oh boy. Well, I'm not subservient, naturally submissive, or whatever adjective we're using these days. I've resisted, reacted, run, and tried to quench what's inside of me. But I'm much more settled now. It wasn't a cakewalk or a button you turn on that makes you instantly obedient or a quasi Stepford slave.

quote:

in case of S/M there are these endorphins released when you experience painful scene, and they cause euphoria


Actually it hurts. But I like that sort of thing. However, like most people I have a threshold.

quote:

feelings of being completely understood, completely researched and studied, without any masks, naked figuratively in front of your Master


Not this girl. I have been misunderstood, compared to people I have no knowledge of, cloaked, and hesitant to show myself on occasion. Getting naked is okay.

quote:

ability to please him, to love him, to serve him, and to enjoy all the good feelings that come from this.


I have loved and given of myself unselfishly. But there much that none have ever received. A lot has gone untapped.

quote:

I hope I guessed something correctly.


With all these things that are many that walk alone and may never find their owner or slave. It is not a simple path on the kneel or at the helm. Quality is a rarity.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:28:19 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

kyraofMists, I tend to think that total removal of entitlement, is very similar to Buddhist concept that only removal of desire can remove suffering, and when one wishes nothing, he can achieve bliss (Nirvana).

Of course it is oversimplified. But there is one thing that doesn't click very well in my mind about this idea. Namely, I think that desire is one of the most important things in life and with removal of my desires, I would feel like a plant. Maybe this feeling would be nothing but pure bliss. Probably it would be bliss. I am quite sure it would be bliss.
But still, I would feel like a plant in the state of bliss, not like a human being.



I'm rather suspicious of Westerner's orientalizing the orient. (Also, coincidentally, it happens in the Orient as well, with, for instance, the Chinese Han orientalizing their own minority populations -- a sort of 'internal orientalism'.)

Usually what happens is that Eastern philosophy is used as an antidote for raw worldly greed and exploitation. You'll find that people such as hedge fund managers find it very amenable -- it's best not to contemplate one's worldly implications, so pretend as if the world is an illusion, that suffering is intrinsic to human existence, etc. etc.



NOW, if you want to get serious about Eastern philosophy:

I was peering through Laozi's 'Dao de Jing' today, the fundamental text of Daoism, and had this idea: Is not the structurally unspeakable 'Way' the perfect parallel to the principles of the Oepidus complex? The fundamental prohibition on which society is based but must remained unnamed, unspeakable, relegated to the core of the subconscious that drives the ego? That can never be reached, realized, symbolized, etc. etc. etc. ...

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:34:13 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		After your response, I am beginning to question the value of slavery. All the GOOD things that I mentioned, you replaced with some sort of complaints.
And also, I have really witnessed many other slaves complain about life being hard in slavery.

Now I would like you to answer me, what are the things that make you want to be a slave, porcelaine?

My present understanding of slavery is following:

There are some risks (those that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread)  but these risks rarely come true because of people who are involved are usually good and sensible. There are some good aspects (those that I mentioned) , but these good aspects are usually not that good and wonderful as many believe.
Finally there is a lot of suffering, frustration, adaptation, and psychological struggle, even in most succesfull relationships.

Overall, elements of struggle and potential risks seem to outweigh the positive aspects. So why do people choose slavery, if this is really true?

If this is NOT true, then I would like you to explain me the best aspects of slavery, from your own perspective?


< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/27/2010 7:41:41 PM >

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:40:09 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

After your response, I am beginning to question the value of slavery. All the GOOD things that I mentioned, you replaced with some sort of complaints.
And also, I have really witnessed many other slaves complain about life being hard in slavery.

Now I would like you to ask me, what are the things that make you want to be a slave, porcelaine?

My present understanding of slavery is following:

There are some risks (those that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread)  but these risks rarely come true because of people who are involved are usually good and sensible. There are some good aspects (those that I mentioned) , but these good aspects are usually not that good and wonderful as many believe.
Finally there is a lot of suffering, frustration, adaptation, and psychological struggle, even in most succesfull relationships.

Overall, elements of struggle and potential risks seem to outweigh the positive aspects. So why do people choose slavery, if this is really true?

If this is NOT true, then I would like you to explain me the best aspects of slavery, from your own perspective?




I like first to recognize that desire, especially as manifested in our society, finds its essence in excess. Everything is too little; all is not enough.

The point I think is not necessarily the satisfaction of desire -- desire is built to be insatiable. Moments of purely satiated desire can epitomize trauma and anxiety.

Maybe, then, you should build desire to make sure it replenishes itself?

I don't know. I'll have to think about it. I desire, constantly, a better definition!

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:54:30 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		i started coughing and laughing when i read SocratesNot's coments to porceline because it sound like i blissful life for sure. 

You keep trying to paint a picture instead of understanding that slavery is not still, its life.  You want it one way or the other and in doing so you are completely leaving out individualism and LIFE.  What you are trying to place into a nice neat box is for most women and Men the messy abstract concept that life is.  Just because its M/s doesn't mean it isn't life.

You can't learn slavery or slave or remotely what it all means in a few days of posting posts most wherein you were doing more talking about something you admit you don't know than listening to those who have knowledge.  IF you had done that, you would see that people do what works for them.  

You do what many people do when they OBSERVE slavery -- you are a person making conclusions on the visible part of the iceberg failing to understand or more so not wanting to understand its what you DON'T see in your observations that make the M/s relationship between the two people what it is.  What you see is the magic trick, and only those involved know the secret to what you observe.

angel

angel

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:58:13 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

But I have a question for you - are you entitled to your slave's obedience?
If you are, why is entitlement good for you, and bad for them?



For this slave, entitlement is a mask. Why is it bad? Because it covers up part of the raw core of slavery to Himself. It takes back authority and steals the power which both parties agreed would be held by the Master. It's dishonest and manipulative and can breed dissension in an otherwise good relationship. Might as well be truthful if you want to be entitled to something and stay vanilla and play kinky games on the weekend. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not our version of slavery. Entitlement was hung up on a hook a long time ago right next to expectation. Haven't a use for either one of them at this point and as it was an especially tough couple of years after our move to Europe which would have been the best time to slip right back into that whole entitlement thing but having a stark experience just recently on this very issue, it has brought it quite home how little of such a thing is needed in this house and how detrimental to my mental well-being it would be to suppose it is. The lack of entitlement, of expectation is one of the main things which has help see me through this major transistion and I'm grateful beyond all get out that I had enough years under my belt to be able to draw on the reserves bank so often during the past two years and get through them.

JMO and MMV and probably will and all that jazz..



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:59:17 PM   
catize


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quote:

But I have a question for you - are you entitled to your slave's obedience?
If you are, why is entitlement good for you, and bad for them?



I would say no.
I would say no one is entitled to anything.
However, the dominant is the one with the authority to determine who gets what. And the reason he/she has that authority is because the submissive/slave has agreed to be the one who gets told how things are going to work in that household.
I'd bet, from all the posts I've read from KoM, Alandra and Kyra,, that even he eschews some things he desires in order to keep what they have alive and flourishing.
Therein lies the beauty of a healthy D/s or M/s union.

_____________________________

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Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:13:54 PM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

But I have a question for you - are you entitled to your slave's obedience?
If you are, why is entitlement good for you, and bad for them?



For this slave, entitlement is a mask. Why is it bad? Because it covers up part of the raw core of slavery to Himself. It takes back authority and steals the power which both parties agreed would be held by the Master. It's dishonest and manipulative and can breed dissension in an otherwise good relationship. Might as well be truthful if you want to be entitled to something and stay vanilla and play kinky games on the weekend. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not our version of slavery. Entitlement was hung up on a hook a long time ago right next to expectation. Haven't a use for either one of them at this point and as it was an especially tough couple of years after our move to Europe which would have been the best time to slip right back into that whole entitlement thing but having a stark experience just recently on this very issue, it has brought it quite home how little of such a thing is needed in this house and how detrimental to my mental well-being it would be to suppose it is. The lack of entitlement, of expectation is one of the main things which has help see me through this major transistion and I'm grateful beyond all get out that I had enough years under my belt to be able to draw on the reserves bank so often during the past two years and get through them.

JMO and MMV and probably will and all that jazz..





No, no -- let's switch this around, and it'll reveal itself:


BDSM is completely and wholly a mask, a fake, a simulacrum, an obscenity.

The key, though, lies in the reversal: the mask is more real than the reality.

When you put on a mask, you shed a falsity for a greater one, a transcendent falsity.

Likewise in the other direction: when you remove a mask, you'll find another mask, and another, and another...

'Suppose truth were a woman, what then?' --- peel back the layers until you find that there's nothing there. 'la femme n'existe pas'!



< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/27/2010 8:14:28 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:20:26 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		SocratesNot,

quote:

After your response, I am beginning to question the value of slavery. All the GOOD things that I mentioned, you replaced with some sort of complaints.


They were not complaints. It's the reality of my experiences. Beauty and tribulation can coexist.

quote:

And also, I have really witnessed many other slaves complain about life being hard in slavery.


I am not a wind up doll. I have a fully functioning mind that I utilize quite frequently. I will not accept any architect to master this structure. I want the best. We must mesh.

quote:

Now I would like you to answer me, what are the things that make you want to be a slave, porcelaine?


There are no things. It is simply a need to give all of myself to Him. Unfiltered. Unadulterated. Everything.

quote:

Overall, elements of struggle and potential risks seem to outweigh the positive aspects. So why do people choose slavery, if this is really true?


Like most things the gains outweigh the risks in their mind. They accept the consequences and pitfalls because the chance of having what they treasure most is too hard to ignore.

quote:

If this is NOT true, then I would like you to explain me the best aspects of slavery, from your own perspective?


Being His. I just want Him. I really can't add on more than that.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:23:35 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


No, no -- let's switch this around, and it'll reveal itself:


BDSM is completely and wholly a mask, a fake, a simulacrum, an obscenity.

The key, though, lies in the reversal: the mask is more real than the reality.

When you put on a mask, you shed a falsity for a greater one, a transcendent falsity.

Likewise in the other direction: when you remove a mask, you'll find another mask, and another, and another...

'Suppose truth were a woman, what then?' --- peel back the layers until you find that there's nothing there. 'la femme n'existe pas'!




Pass. Thanks though. It's not my truth, not my world.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:28:05 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

Being His. I just want Him. I really can't add on more than that.


Wouldn't you still be his without being his slave?
Have you met him in some BDSM-ish setting where you from beginning decided it will be M/s relationship, or it began as vanilla and transformed to M/s?
Whose idea was to try M/s relationship, your or his?


_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:40:44 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


No, no -- let's switch this around, and it'll reveal itself:


BDSM is completely and wholly a mask, a fake, a simulacrum, an obscenity.

The key, though, lies in the reversal: the mask is more real than the reality.

When you put on a mask, you shed a falsity for a greater one, a transcendent falsity.

Likewise in the other direction: when you remove a mask, you'll find another mask, and another, and another...

'Suppose truth were a woman, what then?' --- peel back the layers until you find that there's nothing there. 'la femme n'existe pas'!




Pass. Thanks though. It's not my truth, not my world.


Uh huh.

Good luck with that.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:40:47 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

A children's poem from a poster with a child's mentality.


I will miss this post


But Jeffff, he quoted Bryan Adams. lol. .


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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Profile   Post #: 180
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