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BitaTruble -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/26/2010 8:53:18 PM)
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I wept when I was told I would no longer be called Charlote, and was given a new name. Not a boohoo is me weeping, but a soul wrenching, heartbroken expression of my perceived loss of identity. I hated the name and the very concept of being renamed. Before I experienced the unexpected visceral reaction, I would have scoffed at anyone who said they cried over something so "silly."
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I also have a visceral and not positive reaction about this.
Completely understandable. You have spent your whole life being inundated by friends, family, media etc., to think in a certain way utlizing a standard imposed upon you by society. Many of us who have been doing this sort of thing for a while went through similiar or the same sort of reactions. You'll get over it as you strip away the parts of you which have been implanted by the bombardment and get to the core of who you really are and actually start walking the path you are meant to walk to maximize your potential .. or, you won't. Up to you actually. The *why* of your reaction is much less important than the *what* as in.. what are you going to do about it?
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I would like to ask some questions about TPE.
I also have a visceral reaction about words "slave" and "property".
D/s is OK, being someone submissive is OK, kinky scenes are OK, hard beatings are OK as long as there is no permanent harm.
But, can someone honestly tell me, can being a literal "slave" and "property" without personal identity actually be healthy for anyone?
It's not healthy for just *anyone*. It's healthy for those whom in seeking and finding the truth of themselves and their natures have found it the way they should live in order to live freely as their nature intended and dictates they should. You might never understand it, but if you keep an open mind, you may learn to accept that others are happy and perfectly well-adjusted in choosing to live their authentic selves as slaves, property or owners. Don't get too hung up on labels at this point. They are merely the beginning of communication not the end all be all of definition. Think of labels as starting points and that may help curb some of that knee-jerk reaction to them.
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I am not concerned about physical aspects of this, because in many TPE relationships there isn't very much sadomasochistic elements at all.
What worries me are psychological risks of that.
Fair enough. There are plenty of folks who really don't have their shit together and one can show compassion and concern for those folks. Just make sure that you are quite accurate and have your own shit together before you call them out on it because, you know, you could be incorrect in your assessements if you are not face-to-face and toes-to-toes living in their shoes.
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The word "slave", no matter how erotic it can be, is an ugly word for me. It has so many negative connotations, that I can not like it.
That used to be called a *hang-up*. Not sure what the new lingo would call it these days, but, that's something you'll either get over or learn to accept as your own personal issue. If it's ugly to yo, that's okay. You don't have to like everything. The buffet has plenty of other dishes from which to choose.
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The same thing I feel about the word "property".
When something is your property you have all the rights to use it and abuse it in any ways, and also to destroy it.
Using the word "property" to describe a human being does not feel good for me.
I would suggest that if you feel that strongly about a word in a given context, you refrain from using it. You have neither the power nor the authority to prevent others from using it however they may desire. Again, it's a label. You see the label, you knee-jerk. As a slave *their* definition and, perhaps, gain some enlightment on the subject. You may change your opinion, you may not, but you'll at least get some diverse input from which to draw more accurate conclusions.
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But the words are not important. What is important are the feelings of mutual fulfillment that Masters and slaves have in such relationships.
You can say that and when you believe it, maybe the knee-jerk reaction to those words will stop.
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I am mainly talking about maledom relationships now, but some things can apply to femdom relationships as well.
That being said LNT said, that she is SURE that her primary submissive partner would kill himself if she wanted this.
Can it be in any way healthy? She said that being loyal to her is more important to her partner than being alive.
Really, can this be healthy?
Dead slaves don't provide much entertainment value to their owners nor are they of much use. Can living life assured that you have absolute loyalty and devotion from your slave be healthy? Certainly. Why wouldn't it be? I promise you, there isn't a dominant on this board who is going to kill their slave or have their slave kill themself just to *prove* that loyalty. It's nonsensical and best as shock value to scare away people who don't have the gumption or foresight to realize that while *it could* happen it clearly defeats the purpose of getting your slave trained to practical perfection only to discard of them in such a casual and frivilous manner. Contrary to popular belief, most dominants actually *like* their slaves/property and want to keep them around plus, they just aren't going to risk going to prison. There are, of course, notable exceptions, but it's usually because of some crazy muther who the submissive/slave/property didn't actually take the time necessary to get to know. Charlie Manson is in jail and most of the rest of us are doing okay with sane partners and stable relationships. Once you get to the point that you are willing to die for someone else, chances are you have some time under your belt in your relationship, your in the military or you're a parent.
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People keep telling me that slaves have no issues with self esteem whatsoever, or even if they have it, not more than anyone else.
Gross generalization, perhaps not entirely accurate but close enough that it's not worth getting nit-picky over. People are people no matter where you go. Some good, some not so good and I highly suspect very few people on the planet haven't had their moments of doubt and insecurity in some area or another regardless of which side of the kneel they lay their claim. Adults cope.
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However, I am really puzzled with someone being willing to takes his life in order to please the Domme. If he values his life so little, how can he value himself?
Why make the assumption that he hates his life or holds it of little value? Seems to me that pretty much the opposite is true. He holds great value to his life, finds it precious and offers it as the ultimate sacrifice should such be required. Who would do that except for someone who has found their partner to be ultimately worthy of such a thing? Perspective is a wonderous thing.
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My logic tells me that such person actually values himself and his entire life less than just one aspect of the Domme, and this is her pleasure.
Such devotion doesn't come from logic! No wonder you can't wrap your head around it. Step outside the box for just a moment. Imagine that you have found someone so incredible that they are the very reason you breath.. they literally take your breath away just being in their presence. Now, imagine you are the object of that sort of devotion. Seriously, you going to put a cap in the ass of the most loyal person on the planet to you.. the one who would die for you just for some whim or momentary pleasure? Most adults do have a few brain cells rubbing together especially the ones who can inspire that sort of loyalty in a fellow human and won't cut off their nose to spite their face. Drop the *literal* notch down a peg or two and keep it to planet Earth and you'll do okay.
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For him it is better to be dead and have pleased Mistress, than to be alive, both he and his Mistress, while she is not so pleased.
Well, we'll just take this in baby steps for now. Absorb what I wrote above than come back and reread what you wrote.
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But still, if someone is really a slave, internally enslaved, owned and deprived of personal identity, how dependent she becomes on her Master?
Everywhere from slightly to extraordinairly dependent. It really depends upon to many diverse factors to break it down more than that including personality, lifestyle, finances, sexuality.. too many things to list, really. Definitely one of those individual case-by-case things.
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What happens if Master dies? This is very likely to happen for two reasons:
first, women live longer
second, Master is usually quite older than slave.
Adapt, accept or die.. same as in other other sort of relationship. Some will go to pieces and never recover, others will heal in their time. Who's to say?
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I have read the thread about a woman unable to orgasm on her own after leaving M/s relationship, because she needed permission.
When the Master release her or dies, how much of personal strength, power, identity and ability to cope has really remained in slave?
Depends on many factors. If it is someone older, they may be fine with living their life with the memories.. some one younger may be more resilient and in time desire another relationship and seek such out and the exact reverse could be true. Again, who is to say? If you don't know, you just don't know and speaking in abstracts really isn't going to resolve the issue. It's too general.
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In my opinion the biggest problem with internal enslavement is that slaves become too dependent on their masters.
You are certainly entitled to hold such an opinion as long as you understand exactly how much value it has to a relationship to which you are not a party which means pretty much zilch.
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So if Master owns WHOLE slave (which Jeff said that this is his goal) how much of her being is left to her?
All of her, of course! Stripped down to her core, exposed and raw.. he wants *her* and not someone else or he wouldn't be with *her* .. so what is the point of not having her, in fact, pretty much insisting on her being exactly who she is.. that's the one he wanted after all! You don't go out and get a poodle when you really want a collie.. and if you do, then that's sorta dumb. That's not to say that a Master won't hone and tweak and help someone realize their potential, but it's so much easier to start with a lot of factors you desire already in place otherwise you are just going to end up *replacing* someone who isn't tweaking to your satisfaction.
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Would her life have any sense at all if the Master died or left her?
Maybe, maybe not. Is it somehow different outside of M/s relationships? Do not vanilla men and woman go to pieces or hold it together and cope, too? It is, ultimately, relationships between the people involved to either denigrate or evolve depending on how involved the parties are in making it work. Some people who sit in the big chair are going to insist their slaves/property be well-equipped to cope in the event of such a life change .. others won't give it a second thought and their partner will be left to flounder and it does not much matter if you wear a collar, hold a leash, wear a wedding ring.. some folks prep for later, some don't. It's a people thing, not a M/s thing.
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I tend to believe that in order to be healthy every person must have some personal strength within.
Most adults do but it's not universal by any stretch of the imagination.
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That's why I am extremely afraid of relationships such as TPE or internal enslavement, despite all of its positive sides.
Try not to live in fear. You have the absolutely ability to choose to live your life in a style which suits you. If TPE isn't it, that's okay.. find what works and live your authentic self and it's all good.
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Could someone enlighten me about this very hard topic?
Anything is possible. How open are you to be enlightened? What is your goal in seeking such enlightenment? Lastly, why should someone else use their valuable time on trying to help you attain new knowledge? Are you going to go forth and do good works with it? ;)
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I really DON'T KNOW THE FUCK ABOUT ALL THESE THINGS SO DON'T BE OFFENDED BY THE QUESTIONS OF THIS IGNORANT ASSHOLE.
Instead if someone is willing to REALLY enlighten me I would appreciate it very, very, very much.
Personally, I wasn't offended by your questions. I was a bit confused as to how this ended up in P&RS. It seems a fairly weighty topic with the potential for good discussion but, I'm not a mod so what the hell do I know?
edit: Ugh.. I hate screwing up the quoting function
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