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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 5:17:24 AM

LittleBroken

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Bends over and presents a high tight bubble butt......<giggles> teehheee...I just KNEW all these squats in the power rack at the gym would pay off!

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 5:41:10 AM

barelynangel

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People, while you may not LIKE the OP, please consider the topic is one that many people don't get and by starting the silliness that many times infultrates when people don't LIKE a OP you are actually adding to the confusion on a topic that many already have a hard time with and misconceptions run wild in it as the op shows. It would be nice if all the BS can be left off the topic.

OP, you may want to consider SAYING you are willing to die for someone and someone actually telling you to do so and the person actually taking their life.   You also have to recognize that within every human being there is a concept called survival instinct. However, the concept of slavery that exists especially within the concept of Man mastering a woman, a woman many times does get to the point wherein they believe they are willing to do anything for him -- its what i call the Story of O concept. But the MAJORITY of people aren't and never will be O and more so, they don't wish to be. Does this mean they are somehow lacking in their slavery -- no, because i don't think a majority of Men who own women need to have a devotion wherein she would say she would die for him. Men i know who are capable of mastering and owning a woman don't do so to see what they can get a woman to do or because they need someone who will say they are willing to die for them --- men i know who decide to be Masters are so because they want to own a woman they find value in owning a woman whom they allow to exist in their lives within an atmosphere and environment they create to help her strive to meet his expectations and standards.

Men i know who are Masters don't look at a woman and sa ohhhh yeah a slave, they look at a woman and determine 1) if they can master her, 2) what potential she has to reach and maintain his expectations and standards, and 3) is her value at "purchase" so to speak, higher than the cost it will take for him to get her to meeting his expectations and standards.

Now, most men i know who determine to own a woman do so without her even knowing it, its why there is a getting to know you phase, he is for all intent and purposes inspecting her potential. She on the other hand is inspecting him to see if he is capable of feeding her needs. But the mastery of a woman usually isn't an announcement but simply what a man does. But again, its not something every man is capable of and its not something every man wants to do. It takes work -- a lot of work.

I have a saying:   His will is such i can only be what naturally compels me.

In other words, if a woman isn't naturally inclined to being mastered (not naturally submissive but actually naturally inclined to mastery) a Man will not be able to enslave her to the point she exists fully in slavery.   You can have a dominant woman become a slave to a Man due to her natural inclination to being mastered. However, she has to find the man CAPABLE of mastering HER, not every Man who believes they can master and do so is capable of mastering just any woman.

The level of mastery is always an interesting one but being a slave and slavery exists when the expectation of the mastery is totality, i.e., her autonomy is his -- she is completely governed by his will.   This doesn't mean that she is incapable of making decisions, it means she exists fully under HIS autonomy.

I've always stated that slave is simple it means a person is capable of being mastered to the point of totality.   Its why i recognize slave within me, i know i am capable of this. Doesn't mean any tom, dick or harry is capable of achieving same.

Anyway, someone saying they are willing to die, and them actually proving those words true is not a concept i know personally of anyone actually coming to the point of proving.   Most Men i know don't need or want a woman willing to die for them, it would be kind of contradictory as to why they own a woman lol They want valuable property and well a dead slave is of no value to a Man at all - i mean he can't keep her and he can't sell her, so dead slaves really have no value. Most men enjoy value in their property, so death is usually not the goal they seek.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 5/27/2010 5:46:13 AM >

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 6:08:14 AM

SpiritofaSub

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barelynangel,
I wanted to thank you for your explanation of internal enslavement and TPE. It too has been a topic that I have pondered for awhile. It is nice to see a few on this thread address the topic well.

Thanks again to you and those who offered insight on this topic.

SpiritofaSub

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:12:45 AM

SocratesNot

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Angel, I would also like to thank you, you described this process of mastery very well.

The only thing I still don't get is the moment when strongly male dominated relationship become M/s.

I mean, there are many vanilla relationships in which men are heads of family and women are really loyal to them. The men usually doesn't require strict obedience or anything like this, but when he wants to exercise his will, she will usually accept it and follow. Most patriarchal families work this way, and most women think this to be natural.
But for me, this is still far from calling someone "slave" or "property". I think if I was a wife, and very loyal to my husband, I would most likely obey him on most things and he would be the head of family and he would make major decisions. But the moment he started calling me "slave", "property" and requiring ritualized obedience I would be shocked. I would start to wonder if this is really the man with whom I was so long in a relationship. I would still love him, because of all the previous years of love and attachement etc, but I would be shocked by his sudden decision to turn me into a slave. Since I am not into slavery, most likely I would be pissed off, and the future of our marriage would be questioned.
The second thing that I am not so sure about is if the man ever actually openly express his goal of mastering or enslaving a woman.
If he does, she still has a chance to leave such relationship if she is not into this. But if he doesn't do it, she can be subtly coerced into slavery without her knowledge. And then if the slavery is not her real nature, she might suffer, while appearing happy on the outside, simply because she loves him and wants to please him.
She can be a slave even without knowing so.
But I hope that what you said is true when you said "His will is such i can only be what naturally compels me."
I really tend to think that if woman's nature is not slavery, she would really be compelled not to obey him in this case, but to rebel. If slavery is not her nature, she would rebel, most likely. This is theory and I hope this is true. But I am not sure if this would really happen in real life, especially if she does not have very clear knowledge about his intentions.

Finally, when it comes to "dying for someone" the concept is not at all alien to me. Most people would die for their loved ones in order to save them from some danger, while protecting them from attack etc. Many poems described this feelings.
Wives would die for their husbands, parents for children, husbands for their wives etc. Dying for someone is not strange nor alien to me at all.
Most people would be willing to sacrifice their lives in order to save or protect their loved ones.

What is strange and alien to me is dying for someone just because this is what they wish. While I would probably be willing to risk or sacrifice my life while protecting or rescuing my wife and children, I would refuse to kill myself if they asked for it.
The one thing is sacrificing one's life for sake of saving the life of another.
Completely different thing is taking away your life just in order to satisfy someone's whim.
While I completely understand the first situation and would be willing to do it for the person that is of greatest importance in my life, I don't understand the second situation and I would never do it, not even for the person I love the most.

Of course 99.99999% of dominants would never ask their slaves to kill themselves, but still I am not comfortable with the fact that they would do this if he asked. The mere possibility, willingness to commit suicide to please the Master, is the thing that I don't understand.

All the other things I do understand to some point. And I know that dead slaves are of absolutely no value for their masters.
But still there are some psychopaths who would enjoy forcing someone to kill herself just because he can. To prove his ultimate authority.
What happens if a woman accidentally ends up in a relationship with such a person as his slave?
What happens if she is subtly coerced into slavery without her knowledge, because he is never completely open about what he intends to do?

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 7:58:16 AM

barelynangel

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You can't save everybody. There are people who have no clue what slavery is or slave is or have an idea of what being mastered is and yet they are -- look at the women held in domestic violence relationships. All you can do is educate people and explain the concept without freaking out. The concept of slave and slavery have long existed in MANY FORMS over the centuries of mankind, some of it was beautiful some of it was cruel and some of it was not acceptable to people of our society.

Slavery doesn't have to be for you -- its okay. But what you should first also learn is you don't have to be comfortable with it. What occurs with other people is what works for them. If it doesn't work for you, they really aren't require to convince you of why it works for them or how or even care if you aren't comfortable with it. You have to find what is comfortable for you. If a Man decides he is going to call you his slave and you can walk away because you don't like it or his doing so cuts any bindings the mastery has created to where you can walk away, that is for him to worry about and yourself.

You are focused so much on the bad or the what ifs, you aren't capable of seeing the beauty and that the slavery for many women who become slaves is what she thrives in. When you are WILLING to see that and not worry so much about the what ifs, you will see how natural M/s can be for people who are naturally inclined to such a situation. Its not about taking away, its about living. Its not about proving, its about simply being naturally.

I think you are a little too worried about what everyone else is doing in what you deem BAD, that you are for all intent and purposes locking yourself behind these obstacles which will not allow you to understand. The thing is people love to SPEAK about the extreme, they love to focus on the OMG shock concepts -- that they completely miss 99.999% of the relationships simply never remotely have to or want to go that far, its not necessary for how THEY exist.

In any walk of life even marraige, you can think of extremes. However, most people simply focus on living and being.

angel

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:07:06 AM

daddysprop247

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well said angel.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:10:08 AM

porcelaine

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SocratesNot,

quote:

The only thing I still don't get is the moment when strongly male dominated relationship become M/s.

There's a difference if you're approaching this from established relationships versus new partnerships. Most that fall in the latter category are going in with their eyes open. However, many couples have made the transition from non kink to the M/s end of the spectrum. Some stumble into it so to speak without a term that applies to what they do, but eventually many come to discover what it is.

quote:

The men usually doesn't require strict obedience or anything like this, but when he wants to exercise his will, she will usually accept it and follow. Most patriarchal families work this way, and most women think this to be natural. But for me, this is still far from calling someone "slave" or "property".

You're correct. It is. But remember we're referencing IE here with two elements of enslavement - internal and external. I'm willing to bet you've seen the external sort. You referenced it above. He may influence her style of dress, activities, etc. But now we're internalizing those influences on another level. No longer doing it merely because he suggests it, but because some part of her believes he's right in doing so. Look at it this way. In life you may make a discovery. It resonates within and is no longer an idea but something you've embraced and made your own. It has become your personal truth of sorts. That is what she does with his will.

quote:

But the moment he started calling me "slave", "property" and requiring ritualized obedience I would be shocked.

Ritualization is iffy in the context used. But I understand where you're going. If you recall someone else shared that although she found the experience worthwhile, it really wasn't for her. I don't view this as a coercive path. She has to want it and have a deep ability to be yielded on that level. I'm not suggesting everyone has that capacity or finds happiness in doing so. I've met a lot that didn't.

quote:

The second thing that I am not so sure about is if the man ever actually openly express his goal of mastering or enslaving a woman.

It would be quite the Houdini trick to pull. But remember our discussion about natural submissives. I suggested that it can be misapplied. Someone that possesses the need to please might allow this to happen without protest. I have never encountered a man that wished to enslave me that didn't make that clear at the outset. But that's my experience.

quote:

If he does, she still has a chance to leave such relationship if she is not into this.

From an IE standpoint she's not getting there unless she wants to be there. Both aspects - internal and external - are dependent on her active participation. However, let's assume we have a girl that is submissive but cannot or will not yield on that level. She may step away or the dominant may end the relationship instead. What prohibits that depth of surrender differs for everyone.

quote:

But if he doesn't do it, she can be subtly coerced into slavery without her knowledge. And then if the slavery is not her real nature, she might suffer, while appearing happy on the outside, simply because she loves him and wants to please him.

I haven't met many that fit description. The women I've conversed with over the years were each in relationships that included slavery because they wanted to be there. However, that doesn't suggest that what we want provides a guarantee for happiness. There are a lot of unhappy submissives and slaves on the kneel. Why? Poor decision making in partner choice, perceptions of the role steeped in fantasy, unrealistic expectations, an unwillingness to yield, and an undeveloped knowledge of self. I don't believe this is something you walk into without have a firm understanding if you have the mettle to do it.

quote:

I really tend to think that if woman's nature is not slavery, she would really be compelled not to obey him in this case, but to rebel. If slavery is not her nature, she would rebel, most likely.

Resistance is a reality of the behavioral modifications being made. How that's combated and redirected is up to him. Hopefully he has a good grasp of psychology, human dynamics, leadership, and a dandy dose of common sense. There isn't a one size fits all solution and his technique should be applicable to the situation (girl) rather than broad based.

quote:

The mere possibility, willingness to commit suicide to please the Master, is the thing that I don't understand.

I never discount how far a person might go for someone they care about. However, it isn't a theory one can truthfully test without dire consequences. We're suggesting they would but it can't be proven without someone paying the price.

quote:

What happens if a woman accidentally ends up in a relationship with such a person as his slave?

I would sincerely question her sanity. Not because he asks, but I'd wonder how frequently she ignored the warning signs that things were heading in that direction. Slavery doesn't require you to dismiss your faculties or ignore your personal safety. Perhaps the idea was tantalizing and then the cold reality hit home.

There's another thing to consider. A girl comes to the kneel for different reasons. Obedience isn't always the fuel behind her servitude. It could be sexually motivated. In the example shown that could be the case. The caveat is he's serious. I've encountered people that wanted the real thing, not fantasy (different subject) and they always got around to saying it before we agreed to move ahead.

A failure to ask questions and explore things thoroughly will place people in situations they regret later on. I make no assumptions and have learned to ask. I may not like the answer but I'd prefer to know sooner than later if possible.

~porcelaine

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:19:01 AM

daddysprop247

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

The only thing I still don't get is the moment when strongly male dominated relationship become M/s.

there was no such transitional period in my relationship with my Master. one day he was a friend and mentor, without a thought (on my end) of anything more...and the next he was my Owner and my life belonged to him. i went from free and single, no ties or responsibilities to anyone, to owned property literally overnight. perhaps it was that way for us because of our natures...we both have a rather "all or nothing" mentality on relationships. if he is going to be seriously involved with a woman in any way, then he is going to own her. nothing else is acceptable or tolerable for him. and likewise, once i discovered the truth about myself (that i simply have a submissive personality, not a mental defect), i knew that i could survive in nothing less than a total slavery dynamic. this is because being so submissive, i desperately needed the guidance, direction, discipline, protection and purpose that comes with being owned by an honorable man.

slavery saved my life, and then gave that life purpose and beauty.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:24:31 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
.When it commes to the thing that one does not have to have a submissive personality in order to be enslaved. I am not really sure if this is true.
Jeff insisted several times, that only naturally submissive people can really be full slaves.
Maybe he is wrong. Maybe I am wrong.
Being wrong is not the same as not wanting to know or not wanting to understand, let alone wanting to offend someone.
I think my questions were legitimate.

i think you pose some interesting question: as for the above. you dont need to have a slave mindset to become internally enslaved - the relationship and the person youre having that relationship with, here in the context of Ds or Ms may induce that purely and simply because the dynamic between the two of you works that well and engenders that deisre - from there TPE may develop.

My next question is about this sacrifice being healthy. Why on Earth do you consider their dominants to be BETTER than themselves?
By the way you mentioned afterlife. Many religions are very disapproving of suicide, some even equate it with damnation. Why on Earth would someone (if he is religious) risk being eternally damned just because a dominant wanted it?

ive never considered anyone better than me on any level, people bring different things into the equation, some have strengths where i have weaknesses and vice versa - it isnt about being better than me - its about *us* ultimately creating a relationship that is worth preserving and working on together. im not sure where suicide came into it -

And I also want to know what does it really mean to "master" someone? Or to be "mastered"?
I'd like if Jeff jumped in here, he could provide some good insight.

effictive Mastery of me is in their intelligent, creative, humorist, nurturing, protective direction that is well thought out and encompasses the things that work well and discards those things that dont. they are in control because they are capable of taking the lead and they desire it and the sub trusts their judgement on things.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:24:38 AM

SocratesNot

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quote:

there was no such transitional period in my relationship with my Master. one day he was a friend and mentor, without a thought (on my end) of anything more...and the next he was my Owner and my life belonged to him. i went from free and single, no ties or responsibilities to anyone, to owned property literally overnight. perhaps it was that way for us because of our natures...we both have a rather "all or nothing" mentality on relationships. if he is going to be seriously involved with a woman in any way, then he is going to own her. nothing else is acceptable or tolerable for him. and likewise, once i discovered the truth about myself (that i simply have a submissive personality, not a mental defect), i knew that i could survive in nothing less than a total slavery dynamic. this is because being so submissive, i desperately needed the guidance, direction, discipline, protection and purpose that comes with being owned by an honorable man.

slavery saved my life, and then gave that life purpose and beauty.

That's beautiful post, you described it very well. Maybe I am even beginning to understand. Even I

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:31:04 AM

lucylucy

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SocratesNot,

You keep saying you want to learn, but then you keep talking, talking, talking. Talking is a good way to make sense of what you're learning, but to actually learn, you must listen. Stop talking so much and listen to what others are saying. Read threads that other people have started. Read profiles and journals. Engage individuals in conversations. Stop trying to generalize from every comment someone makes. Stop trying to finetune your universal theory of D/s.

Slow down, listen, learn. Then talk. You'll ask better questions and get better answers.

You say your biggest problem with TPE is the dependence of the slave on the Master, but your opinion is based on such an incredibly limited sample. It would be like me generalizing from the fact that I don't like one particular Chinese restaurant in town that ALL Chinese food is gross. That's what you're doing. Don't be so quick to draw conclusions that you can add into your theory. Just listen, ask questions for clarification of what you've heard (not merely to shoehorn the new info into your theory), and then listen some more.

Good luck. I do believe you want to learn, but I also believe all your talking is causing you to shoot yourself in the proverbial foot.

(Edited to add: I've been a college professor for 15 years, and so I do speak from experience when I say that the best way to learn is to listen. Actually, the best way to learn is to DO but that's not always feasible. Listening is a close second.)

< Message edited by lucylucy -- 5/27/2010 8:32:39 AM >

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:50:42 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

But for me, this is still far from calling someone "slave" or "property". I think if I was a wife, and very loyal to my husband, I would most likely obey him on most things and he would be the head of family and he would make major decisions. But the moment he started calling me "slave", "property" and requiring ritualized obedience I would be shocked. I would start to wonder if this is really the man with whom I was so long in a relationship. I would still love him, because of all the previous years of love and attachement etc, but I would be shocked by his sudden decision to turn me into a slave. Since I am not into slavery, most likely I would be pissed off, and the future of our marriage would be questioned.

Using my relationship as an example: He calls me "His" and there is a personal meaning behind that as there is a personal meaning for the Master who uses "slave" or "property".

I am his because i agreed to be his. A Master/Dom can use whatever term he so chooses, but unless his sub/slave is in compliance...it is just a term with no meaning behind it.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 8:56:49 AM

bestheadyet

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angel......now here you are helping me in this thread lol.
please message me how i may reach you.....id love to counsel with you in regard to my slavery.
i dont have as many walls as OP ...id like to learn about accepting lack of security when i have no choices(except end the relationship) or rights or the actual peace that being owned can bring.
im kinda murky. but i need some one to one. another person was recommended to me but i cant find her. thanks
josie

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:03:32 AM

SimplyMichael

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Sorcrates,

You are too young and too inexperienced to grasp half of what you are reading and what you are reading is 1/100 of the truth. I have met some of these people in real life, people like Jeff and Carol and my opinion of their relationship differs from theirs as does theirs of mine. It is the nature of things. There are also people on here who proclaim to be TPE and IE and frankly, most who bost that are anything but IN MY EXPERIENCE which is almost as long as you have not wearing diapers.

D/s isn't anything magic, isn't anything special, and isn't anything new. The only difference is that we attempt to understand motives and ensure consent on at least some level. Every relationship has power dynamics, vanilla or kink. Sometimes those dynamics are healthy, often they are not. Sometimes those dynamics are exactly how they appear, sometimes they are not.

People are happy drinking themselves to death, shooting heroin, or exploring their death wish. Being "happy" is a state of comparison. I was more happy in my first D/s relationship than any prior but I would slash my wrist beforing living those three years over because what I now percieve of as "happy" is so much more and I am sure somewhere down the road I will look at the relationships I am in now in a similar way.

You are too young to realize that "never", "always", don't exist or to have the perspective of change in the way an adult does, it isn't a matter of maturity, it is simply a matter of living long enough to "see" things that you can't at 22.

Think less, do more would be my advice to you.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:08:18 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Sorcrates,

You are too young and too inexperienced to grasp half of what you are reading and what you are reading is 1/100 of the truth. I have met some of these people in real life, people like Jeff and Carol and my opinion of their relationship differs from theirs as does theirs of mine. It is the nature of things. There are also people on here who proclaim to be TPE and IE and frankly, most who bost that are anything but IN MY EXPERIENCE which is almost as long as you have not wearing diapers.

D/s isn't anything magic, isn't anything special, and isn't anything new. The only difference is that we attempt to understand motives and ensure consent on at least some level. Every relationship has power dynamics, vanilla or kink. Sometimes those dynamics are healthy, often they are not. Sometimes those dynamics are exactly how they appear, sometimes they are not.

People are happy drinking themselves to death, shooting heroin, or exploring their death wish. Being "happy" is a state of comparison. I was more happy in my first D/s relationship than any prior but I would slash my wrist beforing living those three years over because what I now percieve of as "happy" is so much more and I am sure somewhere down the road I will look at the relationships I am in now in a similar way.

You are too young to realize that "never", "always", don't exist or to have the perspective of change in the way an adult does, it isn't a matter of maturity, it is simply a matter of living long enough to "see" things that you can't at 22.

Think less, do more would be my advice to you.

I know many 'adults' who would disagree, that only when you, for instance, start raising a family, do you even begin understanding notions of 'never' and always'.

Oh yeah... doing heroin and shooting crack is definitely NEVERs. That should be common sense, not buts about it.

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:19:37 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
But, can someone honestly tell me, can being a literal "slave" and "property" without personal identity actually be healthy for anyone?

I'm not going to speak for others, but Carol has a personal identity... She's Carol. What we had to do was rework our heads to allow for the concept of an owned human as more than a theoretical thing that happens somewhere else in the world. But other than that, she's pretty much as she ever was.

quote:

I am not concerned about physical aspects of this, because in many TPE relationships there isn't very much sadomasochistic elements at all.
What worries me are psychological risks of that.

me too... back to the law of unintended consequences.

quote:

The word "slave", no matter how erotic it can be, is an ugly word for me. It has so many negative connotations, that I can not like it.
The same thing I feel about the word "property".

It's neither erotic nor ugly to me. It's simply the proper technical description for a human being owned by another. It is certainly true that I had to reclaim that word in my own head. One of the things you'll find important in BDSM-land is to look at ACTUAL circumstances. Being a slave in the historical sense is a bad thing. Being a slave the way Carol is would be bad for most people. But the only question on the table is, "Is it bad for her?" It's also ridiculous to get hung up on labels. If you don't like the word "slave', then fine, use another.

quote:

When something is your property you have all the rights to use it and abuse it in any ways, and also to destroy it.

OK, let's not get lost in fantasy here. Carol is my property, yes. But Carol is also a level-headed woman. How long do you think she would remain my property if being so were proven to be bad for her. Granted, she'd drag it on longer than most would. But eventually, there'd be a point. No matter how far she has surrendered her judgement on what is good and not over to me, eventually the evidence of actuality would mount up.

quote:

Using the word "property" to describe a human being does not feel good for me.

That's fine. It works for us.

quote:

That being said LNT said, that she is SURE that her primary submissive partner would kill himself if she wanted this. Can it be in any way healthy? She said that being loyal to her is more important to her partner than being alive. Really, can this be healthy?

I'd have to see the direct quote. I can tell you that I personally do not have any Jim Jones dynamic going on in my marriage. If I told Carol to kill herself, she'd return both the collar and wedding ring to me and tell me to get lost. If, however, I handed her a gun and told her to put it to her head and pull the trigger, she'd comply. Now, I leave it as an exercise to you to figure out why the first command would fail and the second succeed. I personally would consider ACTUALLY training the survival instinct out of your slave to be ... well... exactly what Jim Jones did and not particularly laudable. I'll make another note here though. In my experience, a great many posters... even ones that seem very sensible, are lost in fantasy to some degree or another -- ESPECIALLY when it comes to topics like this.

quote:

People keep telling me that slaves have no issues with self esteem whatsoever, or even if they have it, not more than anyone else.
However, I am really puzzled with someone being willing to takes his life in order to please the Domme. If he values his life so little, how can he value himself?

*nods* I agree... at least if the taking of life is spurious. On the other hand, either Carol or myself would sacrifice our own lives in a heartbeat to save the other's.

quote:

But still, if someone is really a slave, internally enslaved, owned and deprived of personal identity, how dependent she becomes on her Master?

Another common question. I'll point out that at least for Carol, she has not stopped making her own decisions. She has not stopped having her own opinions about what is right and wrong, proper and improper. It's just that my opinions trump hers. Near as I can tell, were I to die, she'd simply continue on as she is now ... with nobody's opinions to trump hers. She'd also be very sad but financially stable.

quote:

So if Master owns WHOLE slave (which Jeff said that this is his goal) how much of her being is left to her? Would her life have any sense at all if the Master died or left her?

Here's a little tip. Carol and I are and have always been madly in love. If either of us died (at any time in our marriage), the remaining partner's life would've been thrown into a dismal tailspin. However, we are also both strong, capable individuals and we'd work through it.

quote:

I tend to believe that in order to be healthy every person must have some personal strength within.

So do I. Great. What's that got to do with Carol. You are completely misreading what it means to be my slave.

Dude, would you like to talk to Carol in email or on the phone? You could probably get a lot of your misconceptions cleared up in a more focused communication.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:29:21 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Actually, the enslavement website in the FAQ states actually that the decision to become slaves is the last independent decision in the life of an internaly enslaved slave.
I will quote it:

quote:

Isn't consensual non-consent a contradiction in terms? Not really, since it means giving legally valid consent to start the process of enslavement, in the knowledge that the process will remove the ability to withdraw consent in the future.

yeah well, that's why I hate to be associated with IE also... there are so many muddy, halt-thought out, statements on that site that it's hard for me to take them seriously.

And yes, consensual non-consent is a contradiction. Politicians like to use such constructs ("Make war for peace", etc.) to confuse the masses which makes them easier to lead. It's just another cheesy debate tactic. If you don't like Internal Enslavement, then don't both with it. That's what I do. Accept the fact that for some people they groove on it. That's their choice.

here's a little tidbit for you though. Without some substantive change in our relationship, neither Carol nor I are capable of choosing to leave. OOooooh, sounds so BDSM-ey doesn't it? Except the real truth is that we are unable to choose that because it would be too freakin stupid to even contemplate. You know, we love each other. Oft-times in BDSM-land I find perfectly normal concepts that are all wrapped up in dark mystery and power words.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:31:37 AM

bestheadyet

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what i am having issue with is the lack of security i seem to have as a slave(being released or sold at Master's choosing) and having no choice or rights in this dichotomy ....and Master keeping me in close range as His charge...but not stating His feelings....i mean is there peace to being owned or insecurity of being property?

i think im still on topic here .....lol
ty

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 9:58:19 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bestheadyet
]what i am having issue with is the lack of security i seem to have as a slave(being released or sold at Master's choosing) and having no choice or rights in this dichotomy ....and Master keeping me in close range as His charge...but not stating His feelings....i mean is there peace to being owned or insecurity of being property?

*shrugs* If you find your position as a slave is not secure enough for your tastes, then find a new owner. Why does everyone need to BDSM-ify everything? As Carol's husband, I can leave her at my choosing. As my slave, Carol can leave me at her choosing. Because our relationship is as wonderful as it is, such thoughts are hard to imagine. But if things changed in our relationship, those choices would open up. The future is never secure.

I can't comment on you and your relationship beyond saying, if it isn't working for you, then fix it or find another one.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE - 5/27/2010 10:02:20 AM

mnottertail

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And that saying is not just for the whorish sinners, either......a piece of paper, signed between you two at some intimate moment, or brought before the pope and signed and sealed by the angels themselves, don't plug no holes either......they are just as porous a condom as any.

Just sayin.

It all comes down to comfort and security levels.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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