RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 9:01:17 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

It still has a long way to go and it looks like the GOP will do everything they can to stop it.

They don't have any solutions for problems that matter. All they can do is manufacture "moral" stances for something to run on.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 10:35:46 AM

thompsonx

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FR:
The military is having a lot of trouble meeting recruitment levels.
The general in charge of recruit training has stated publicly that the physical and mental capabilities of new recruits is the lowest in the history of the army.
Perhaps if gays were to simply eschew the military there would not be enough soldiers to have wars of agrandisement.
yeah right...

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 10:40:19 AM

popeye1250

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BREAKING: Jay Leno's "Ross the Intern" shows up at Marine Corps Recruiting Station.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 12:32:59 PM

housesub4you

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Jay who?

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 6:24:53 PM

Hillwilliam

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I asked a very good friend who has seen a LOT of combat about sharing a foxhole with a gay man. He said "can the fucker shoot straight and not freeze then the shit hits the fan?" That's all I care about.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 6:44:03 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FR:
The military is having a lot of trouble meeting recruitment levels.
The general in charge of recruit training has stated publicly that the physical and mental capabilities of new recruits is the lowest in the history of the army.
Perhaps if gays were to simply eschew the military there would not be enough soldiers to have wars of agrandisement.
yeah right...

I don't know where you are getting your information for this one. From what My son's recruiter says, they are constantly hitting/surpassing recruiting goals.

A Historic Success In Military Recruiting In Midst of Downturn, All Targets Are Met

By Ann Scott Tyson Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 For the first time in more than 35 years, the U.S. military has met all of its annual recruiting goals, as hundreds of thousands of young people have enlisted despite the near-certainty that they will go to war. The Pentagon, which made the announcement Tuesday, said the economic downturn and rising joblessness, as well as bonuses and other factors, had led more qualified youths to enlist.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 6:46:39 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

FR:
The military is having a lot of trouble meeting recruitment levels.
The general in charge of recruit training has stated publicly that the physical and mental capabilities of new recruits is the lowest in the history of the army.
Perhaps if gays were to simply eschew the military there would not be enough soldiers to have wars of agrandisement.
yeah right...

I don't know where you are getting your information for this one. From what My son's recruiter says, they are constantly hitting/surpassing recruiting goals.

A Historic Success In Military Recruiting In Midst of Downturn, All Targets Are Met

By Ann Scott Tyson Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 For the first time in more than 35 years, the U.S. military has met all of its annual recruiting goals, as hundreds of thousands of young people have enlisted despite the near-certainty that they will go to war. The Pentagon, which made the announcement Tuesday, said the economic downturn and rising joblessness, as well as bonuses and other factors, had led more qualified youths to enlist.

If that is true then why is there "stop loss"?

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:04:44 PM

LadyPact

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I'm very glad you asked.

Stop loss is specifically for certain MOS's within the military. For example, clip is actually eligible for stop loss because he's a nurse and the nursing programs are seriously backlogged. Even though recruiting figures are up, it takes longer to train the new personnel in certain fields than they are being lost. That's a retention, rather than a recruiting issue. Plus, you have to consider that with the actual numbers in certain fields has increased in need, those are the very fields that take the longest for AIT. (For example, clip's was a year for LPN training.)

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:07:38 PM

thompsonx

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I know a lot of 0311 (rifleman) on stop loss.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:13:53 PM

dcnovice

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FR

Some of our allies have allowed gays to serve openly for years, with no ill effect so far as I know. Any theories about why this is such a contentious issue in The U.S.?

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:18:58 PM

thompsonx

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Might want to look here.

http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/10169

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1232092/posts

This from lt.gen hurtling the army guy in charge of recruit training.

http://undertheradar.military.com/2010/03/army-thinks-video-games-made-recruits-soft/

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:20:33 PM

LadyPact

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Yes, that's another part of it. Not all military occupational specialties are ones that folks are hopping up and down to sign up for. It is a war, ya know.

Plus, a lot of people joining the military today are doing so with careers in mind for after they get out. So, an example such as you provided, is an excellent one. People aren't choosing such things because there really isn't a transition for employment opportunities when their military service is over. Fields that are better for opportunities of carrying over to the civilian world are where the folks are making their choices.

One other thing that was consistent in two locations (as My son was researching his own enlistment before and after our family moved last year) was recruiters specifically talking about a particular rise in folks interested in joining military service who weren't the 'fresh out of high school' age range. They were seeing a lot of people coming in just before the cut off age. Unemployment rates have made a serious impact.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:22:56 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

I don't know where you are getting your information for this one. From what My son's recruiter says, they are constantly hitting/surpassing recruiting goals.

Do you feel that recruiters are a valid source of information that might be in conflict with army doctrin?

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:23:59 PM

LadyPact

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You do realize that one of your references is from 2004?

Edited (sorry) I'm not basing My information from statistics that old.

Edited Again - Your third reference doesn't have any actual recruiting numbers data. It only is about the opinion that the lack of physical exercise has had an impact on the general idea that high school age recruits may not be as physically fit.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 5/28/2010 7:27:49 PM >

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:26:43 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

They were seeing a lot of people coming in just before the cut off age.

The second cite I posted indicates that the army has raised the maximum age for enlistment.
They cannot get enough skilled enlistees and they cannot get enough cannon fodder.
The cites I posted indicate that they are lying about meeting their recruitment goals by moving the goal post.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/28/2010 7:27:40 PM >

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:33:47 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You do realize that one of your references is from 2004?

The 2004 article is referencing the lowering of the standards and the maximum age of enlistees.
The point was that these standards were lowered in 2004 but had not produced the desired results by 2010.

Edited (sorry) I'm not basing My information from statistics that old.

Edited Again - Your third reference doesn't have any actual recruiting numbers data. It only is about the opinion that the lack of physical exercise has had an impact on the general idea that high school age recruits may not be as physically fit.

The third reference was the lt general of the army (that is a 3 star general) in charge of recruit training. There is a rather long interview with him on that cite not just the few lines of commentary.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/28/2010 7:34:49 PM >

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 7:46:21 PM

LadyPact

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Work with Me here.

I'm not just basing this on what I've been told. I'm also basing it on what I've seen. I realize this isn't exactly the section where folks will necessarily listen when a person shows up and says every time they've personally visited the recruiting office, the place is full.

There have been changes in recruiting practices. They've extended the upper age as well as weight limits. Not all of the changes have been in favor of those hoping to sign up. There are actually tighter restrictions now as far as a person's criminal record. The days that a person could scoot out of their legal problems by joining the service are gone.

Let's say I had a private company and I employed 1,000 people. In making My business' five year plan, I knew that there would be a certain amount of turnover and an expected a certain amount of growth. If I expect to have to continually hire enough people to cover those employees that I lost through normal circumstances and I planned to cover those folks through My plans.

Then POW! A couple of years into My five year plan, My business soars and literally, My 1,000 employees really just aren't enough to meet My needs. I need employees quick and I need them yesterday. Obviously, My HR plan for turnover is no longer sufficient. Add to this, say we have a serious explosion of some sort and many of My employees are no longer capable of remaining in My business because of health reasons. (My euphemism for those soldiers who are hurt or killed in service.) Damn. Now I'm really screwed. My five year plan isn't anywhere near realistic anymore, even though it might have been when I created it.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 8:10:04 PM

LadyPact

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I should probably apologize to the OP for the side discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The UCMJ is still going to govern behavior.

Getting rid of DADT is a great thing. Heretic is right though. It doesn't change the UCMJ, so the original issue of folks engaging in homosexual acts are still subject to court martial. At least as it's written and I understand it.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 8:54:11 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I should probably apologize to the OP for the side discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The UCMJ is still going to govern behavior.

Getting rid of DADT is a great thing. Heretic is right though. It doesn't change the UCMJ, so the original issue of folks engaging in homosexual acts are still subject to court martial. At least as it's written and I understand it.

The UCMJ can be changed after DADT is repealed. Pretty sure that just takes an executive order.

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RE: Repeal of Do Not Ask Do Not Tell Policy - 5/28/2010 9:25:41 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The UCMJ can be changed after DADT is repealed. Pretty sure that just takes an executive order.

I think you are right that the UCMJ will need some tinkering, Ken, whatever the process is. I was taking that as a given in my post. What I meant was in terms of how gay soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines are going to have to conduct themselves within how ever many miles of the flagpole. Sexual orientation cannot be allowed to take priority over appropriate military discipline.

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