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RE: How to feel more submissive - 5/31/2010 2:13:19 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandernwonder

I know I should discuss it with him, but I haven't quite figured out how to say "Gee, you're a really nice guy, but not dominant enough for me" without it sounding like an insult- which is the last thing I want to do.
If I'm worried about upsetting someone I often find it helps to express the problem as a problem with *me* rather than them, so maybe "I'm having a problem getting into subspace-could I have your help in solving this problem, please?" would work better.




I agree. I would really sit down with him and be honest, about all of it. There isn't any blame, but if both of your needs are getting met, it's hard as hell to make it work. I would focus on your needs more than what he is or isn't doing.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
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RE: How to feel more submissive - 5/31/2010 3:46:08 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandernwonder

Excellent idea- thanks, I never considered that approach.




Thus proving that secondary school was worth *something*-teacher manipulation skills never stop being useful...




There is a fine line between manipulation and intervention.

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: How to feel more submissive - 5/31/2010 5:04:10 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

There is a fine line between manipulation and intervention.
See, I'd be more inclined to say that there was a grey area than a fine line.

When it comes down to it, saying 'I'm having a problem with my submission' rather than 'you aren't being dominant enough' when you know that you mean the second of the two is deliberately manipulating the facts in order to avoid upsetting the other person. Manipulation with good intentions is still manipulation-but that's a part of how humans interact.

YMMV.


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: How to feel more submissive - 5/31/2010 7:29:52 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		wandernwonder,

quote:

my last relationship was with someone who had an inherently quiet but dominant personality, although there were a number of things which led to the end of that, the chemistry was truely electrifying- I felt extrememly submissve at all times with him, even when we were not physically in the same space.


I think there's a big difference between compatibility and things that compel your submission. Sometimes they're one in the same and other times that isn't true. I have met people that I could consider compatible but they did nothing to inspire my desire to yield. For some that would be okay and they'd work towards the development of those feelings, but that isn't my wiring. It feels too forced and I didn't allow the situations to continue.

quote:

It seems that my tolerance levels aren't as high now, I have trouble getting into subspace, it's just kind of ho hum kinky sex, the sparks aren't there. llizis' phrase about the "disconnect" seems to be exactly what I feel- I have difficulty bridging the transition between "friend" and "sub".


I'm a proponent for honesty. Sometimes the truth is unpleasant but he really can't address the issue if he's in the dark. Since this is an established relationship my approach is very different. I bring those difficulties to the other person. Not one but all of it. It isn't my responsibility to figure out how I'm going to muddle through or to deal either. That's why I have a dominant in the picture. We work together to find reasonable solutions. That isn't happening if he's unaware that a problem is simmering beneath the surface. I'd stop worrying about hurt feelings and consider the damage your silence is probably creating instead.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to wandernwonder)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: How to feel more submissive - 5/31/2010 11:23:53 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

There is a fine line between manipulation and intervention.
See, I'd be more inclined to say that there was a grey area than a fine line.

When it comes down to it, saying 'I'm having a problem with my submission' rather than 'you aren't being dominant enough' when you know that you mean the second of the two is deliberately manipulating the facts in order to avoid upsetting the other person. Manipulation with good intentions is still manipulation-but that's a part of how humans interact.

YMMV.



Totally disagreeing here VC. It is not my place (as a human) to tell someone else what they are doing is x, y, or z. I take full responsibility for *my* part. If someone doesn't zing for me, I would say "I'm just not feeling it" rather than "you aren't zingy enough." One, that person is what they are, and they are perfectly zingy for somebody. Two, the only person I can change is me. If the other person's zing isn't doing it for me, then YES, I am having a problem with my zangy response.

And besides, what is a gray area but a whole bunch of lines smooshed together? *wink

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 1:55:17 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Totally disagreeing here VC. It is not my place (as a human) to tell someone else what they are doing is x, y, or z.
Maybe this is where we're different-I don't see the world in terms of 'it is/is not my place to do x,y,z'-I see it in terms of  'I want x,y,z to happen-what's the most effective way of acheiving that goal?'. In my head it's not about whether I'm entitled to tell someone else something, it's about whether telling them it will have a positive effect on the situation.

quote:

I take full responsibility for *my* part. If someone doesn't zing for me, I would say "I'm just not feeling it" rather than "you aren't zingy enough." One, that person is what they are, and they are perfectly zingy for somebody.
That position assumes that the other person is being their 'authentic self' (much as I hate to use the words). What if they are holding back the zing-factor on your account?  What if they've never been in a relationship where they've been *able* to be this zingy, and they need that little nudge to tell them it's ok, you can handle it?

Dismissing them by saying 'I'm just not feeling it' seems a little harsh from over here-perhaps I've misunderstood your words, and you don't mean them as a dismissal?

quote:

Two, the only person I can change is me.
In this context I disagree-we're talking about outward behaviour rather than a set of inner core beliefs. She can say 'I'm struggling here' which will motivate him to change his behaviour in order to protect and preserve the relationship.

Perhaps it's not a question of changing him herself, per se-just stating a fact that if the relationship is to thrive and be successful then a change will have to be made.

quote:

If the other person's zing isn't doing it for me, then YES, I am having a problem with my zangy response.
So she jacks in the relationship, or she does all the work to alter her submissive mindset, or he does all the work to be more outwardly dominant, or they work together and both change things to enable them to meet in the middle. I know which of those situations appeals the most to me, but again YMMV.

quote:

And besides, what is a gray area but a whole bunch of lines smooshed together? *wink
Sort of . But the use of the words 'fine line' implies that at one point on the scale you're doing one thing, and then you shift up a bit, cross a boundary, and suddenly you're doing the other thing-there's an implication that you can't be doing both at once which isn't present in the words 'grey area'.


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RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 2:37:46 AM   
WestBaySlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

When it comes down to it, saying 'I'm having a problem with my submission' rather than 'you aren't being dominant enough' when you know that you mean the second of the two is deliberately manipulating the facts in order to avoid upsetting the other person. Manipulation with good intentions is still manipulation-but that's a part of how humans interact.



I think this kind of emotional manipulation and can actually work both ways; it can much more complex that just rephrasing something. For example, a number of times when I've been very angry at someone, I've tried to approach it from the angle of whether I'd done something to displease or upset them that resulted in certain actions ( whether it was them saying something, or doing something ), rather than letting my anger fly and telling them to stop acting like an a-hole ( which may have been my first reaction ). This is not only a manipulation of their reaction, but of my own feelings, sublimating the anger I feel into sadness and disappointment that someone I care for would treat me a certain way. Often this two-way street of dealing with things has been all that's stopped me from getting physically violent, as I focus my negative feelings internally on my own hurt rather than outwards towards someone's real or perceived wrongdoing.

In this case, I'd definitely take the "I'm having trouble submitting" route rather than the "you're not dominant enough" route. The latter is almost guaranteed to get some sort of - understandable - defensive reaction, where as the former is reaching out to someone in a time of need. Both might be fundamentally true, for example, a sub does need a dom's help submitting, and the reason for that is that he isn't dominant enough, but one starts from a position of no blame moving towards a place where the dom can feel he's genuinely helped his sub and made their lives better, and the other starts from a place where the dom is at a place of weakness and failure trying to break even. The perception of a situation can make all the difference in the world to how it's resolved, even if it's dealing with an identical problem.

< Message edited by WestBaySlave -- 6/1/2010 2:39:17 AM >

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RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 1:15:54 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have no idea what you people are going on about.

I don't see this as manipulation at all. Anger, for example, is usually a reaction to fear. Addressing and communicating about the primary emotion of fear rather than expressing the anger, which is unlikely to be helpful, isn't manipulation in my opinion. It's being realistic and communicating appropriately.

I don't think there really is any one-sided blame in most relationships situations I have been in, focusing on blame ie: you're not dominant enough, is silly and counter-productive. Focusing on needs and the ultimate success of the relationship, isn't manipulation.

Saying I am not going to have sex with you if you don't do A, B, and C is an example of manipulation, communicating in an adult fashion is not.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to WestBaySlave)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 1:28:21 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Laurell,

Saying 'please can you help me with this problem of mine?' when you mean 'please fix this problem of yours' in order to spare a person's feelings is manipulation-you're bending what you mean in order to get the other person to do what you want.

Not manipulation in an 'OMG you're a terrible manipulative bitch!' way, but manipulation nonetheless.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 1:30:36 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		On the other hand if you can't spot the difference in the intent, maybe the dom isn't paying attention.

_____________________________

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(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 1:38:44 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, well you are still focusing on blame. The problem isn't his or mine, the problem is ours. Saying I need THIS to make a relationship fit my needs is focusing on US, not one of us. That isn't manipulation. Blame isn't helpful or even applicable in this situation in my opinion.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/1/2010 2:11:17 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 3:25:02 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline 		Sometimes it can be no-ones fault, yet still addressing it in the most direct way can lead to hurt feelings. Using this situation as an example, it's not his fault if he's not dominant enough for her; he may not even be aware of this trouble in their relationship, yet, her telling him up-front that he's not fulfilling her needs as a submissive is likely to make him feel bad. Sometimes taking an indirect and not quite straight-from-the-heart approach can help address issues with no-one left feeling inadequate.




(in reply to laurell3)
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RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/1/2010 6:34:48 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		If I don't react with yielding and submission toward someone, I wouldn't say that they weren't dominant enough, or that I'm not submissive enough, but would feel (at the beginning of a relationship) that we didn't have sufficient D/s chemistry together. I would probably give it a bit more time and opportunity if we really clicked in other ways, but I can't have a D/s relationship without that. SN, for me, submission hasn't developed over time from nothing, although it has deepened. I either feel it within the first couple of times interacting, or it just isn't there, much like sexual chemistry. I can be happy in an egalitarian kinky relationship, but I won't call someone my dominant or my submissive unless we have that power exchange response to one another, even if I am obedient and compliant, or even if he is willing to perform acts of service.

To the OP, if there is something specific that you are aware that you need, by all means, communicate with him! I haven't really been able to get a list of actions or words that will induce that response. It's like falling in love, either it happens, or it doesn't. There are some things that almost guarantee I won't feel that way toward someone, but not a failsafe way to evoke it. It might be worth exploring protocol, acts of service, asking him to clamp down and be more strict or whatever. Did you originally feel more D/s chemistry, and his expectations have become less demanding lately, or has this been an issue from the beginning?

(in reply to WestBaySlave)
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RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/3/2010 3:44:41 PM   
wandernwonder


Posts: 5
Status: offline 		We3ll, I certainly didn't anticipate some of the directions this thread wound up going, but overall it was enlightening. I'll try the most plausible ( for me anyway) suggestions, and go from there.

I have found that setting aside a few minutes each day for some meditation of sorts helps some, as does focusig on our respective roles. As we both have a somewhat sideways sense of humor, our banter tends to be rather tongue in cheek at times, all good fun and enjoyable, but it seems I tend to lose focus on the submissive side of me with too much of that, and need to regroup some.

(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/3/2010 4:03:36 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wandernwonder

I'll try the most plausible ( for me anyway) suggestions, and go from there.


That's all we'd ever expect.

I wish you happiness and success, honey.


_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to wandernwonder)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/3/2010 4:26:50 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wandernwonder

We3ll, I certainly didn't anticipate some of the directions this thread wound up going, but overall it was enlightening. I'll try the most plausible ( for me anyway) suggestions, and go from there.

I have found that setting aside a few minutes each day for some meditation of sorts helps some, as does focusig on our respective roles. As we both have a somewhat sideways sense of humor, our banter tends to be rather tongue in cheek at times, all good fun and enjoyable, but it seems I tend to lose focus on the submissive side of me with too much of that, and need to regroup some.



CM is quirky like that. We think too much it seems, well I do.

Good luck though and welcome to the boards!

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to wandernwonder)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/3/2010 5:13:10 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandernwonder

I'll try the most plausible ( for me anyway) suggestions, and go from there.


That's all we'd ever expect.

I wish you happiness and success, honey.



I dont expect anything from you but I wish you the best.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/3/2010 7:16:49 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		Andalusite,

quote:

If I don't react with yielding and submission toward someone, I wouldn't say that they weren't dominant enough, or that I'm not submissive enough, but would feel (at the beginning of a relationship) that we didn't have sufficient D/s chemistry together. I would probably give it a bit more time and opportunity if we really clicked in other ways, but I can't have a D/s relationship without that.


I really like your approach. As you might have guessed I feel the same.

quote:

I either feel it within the first couple of times interacting, or it just isn't there, much like sexual chemistry.


Perhaps it's merely my wiring. I know early on and I'm very honest with myself if the connection is missing. I'm aware that some can move beyond it and grow into the dynamic, but I've never been the sort. If the individual doesn't touch that part of me the power exchange is compromised. I'd be yielding to an idea who's reality I've never felt.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/6/2010 5:04:31 PM   
submale4u2spank


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/24/2006
Status: offline 		The best thing I can think of is have him give you a good beating and then give you a swirly in the toilet.  If that doesn't work, try it again.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: How to feel more submissive - 6/6/2010 5:34:23 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I dont think its what a dominant "does" per se that makes him dominant; all the bedroom dominance, all the protocol, all the posturing in the world would not give me the feelings I need if it were not for who my dominant IS.  Who he is is a man I have the highest respect for; who tells me ( and makes good on it) that anything important to me is important to him, and he does what he says he is going to do.  Kink does not make me feel submissive; it underscores the D/s dynamic.

My suggestion to the OP is that she may want to review what she feels is true dominance.   

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 60
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