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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 5:46:55 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Not because they make movies, but because they are not experts or even novices at disaster intervention. I think we can do much better. Cameron was called to help solve the problem. You tell me what his credentials are in resolving enviornmental disasters. Particularly one of this magnitude.
         mbmbn

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 5:49:12 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

I'll tell you what we WON'T be linking you to, that's an article on how BP was on top of it's shit.


I agree. That fact has nothing to do with Cameron,Cosner and Jollywood saving our asses.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 5:49:43 PM   
realcoolhand


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Status: offline 		Difference between Obama and Bush: Bush woke up every morning for a week before Katrina, saw that a hurricane was headed toward the city, and thought "heh, I can deal with that tomorrow." Obama woke up one morning and the Gulf was full of oil.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 5:54:46 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

Difference between Obama and Bush: Bush woke up every morning for a week before Katrina, saw that a hurricane was headed toward the city, and thought "heh, I can deal with that tomorrow." Obama woke up one morning and the Gulf was full of oil.


Agree on the Bush point. < see I told you we would agree on a few things >
Agreed on Obama point, with exception. Obama has had a month to do something... he has sat tight and not dealt with it either. Unless you call saying " Plug the damn hole " doing something.


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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:00:33 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		If all the oil spill need was food and shelter it would be there already.

You are not comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing apples and toasters.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:03:36 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Bush made 9 visits to the Gulf coast in seven weeks. Obama has made 2 visits in 45 days. The spill certainly wasn't Obama's fault, as Katrina wasn't Bush's fault. The slow response in any clean up is on Obama and even those on the 'left' are starting to blame him for his administrations lack of effort.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:04:02 PM   
realcoolhand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

Difference between Obama and Bush: Bush woke up every morning for a week before Katrina, saw that a hurricane was headed toward the city, and thought "heh, I can deal with that tomorrow." Obama woke up one morning and the Gulf was full of oil.


Agree on the Bush point. < see I told you we would agree on a few things >
Agreed on Obama point, with exception. Obama has had a month to do something... he has sat tight and not dealt with it either. Unless you call saying " Plug the damn hole " doing something.


In fairness, plugging massive under-water oil leaks isn't traditionally something the President is responsible for, or (come to think of it) something that anyone has had to deal with. This is really the sort of risk that we should expect the folks who CREATE the risk to be prepared to deal with; they SHOULD have to figure the FULL cost of solving the problem into the basic cost-benefit analysis they use to evaluate the whether deep-sea drilling is a good business decision. After all, they're the ones who capture the benefit of oil extraction.

Which brings me to my pet peeve; tort reform. It comes in all shapes and sizes, and recently we've heard a lot about how the damages for which BP may be responsible are capped at some (now clearly ridiculously low) figure. Sure, it SEEMS to lower the cost of doing business and, in this case, encouraged more oil production. That said, it only SEEMS to lower the cost of doing business. What it really does is externalize the cost of massive fuck-ups like this one, shifting those costs to the public.

At the same time, it magnifies those risks. It magnifies those risks by incentivizing BIG risks over reasonable risks. Say the cap on damages is 75 million. If an oil company only takes risks that could do 12 million in damage a pop, then they will have to eat the whole cost of those risks. However, if they take chances that could cost billions, anything over the 75 million cap is basically free money--they can reap the reward incumbent in the risk, without actually bearing the risk.

Perverse economic incentives hurt everyone, and tort reform creates perverse economic incentives.

< Message edited by realcoolhand -- 6/2/2010 6:09:01 PM >

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:05:28 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Status: offline 		I believe Katrina did more than leave folks without food and shelter. Wasn't a levy breached ? Flooding  ? Those two things lead to more problems than loss of food and shelter. It wasn't as simple as finding food and a roof for the people affected by Katrina. That would have been an easy fix.



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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:06:31 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Has anyone pondered the position, that advancing technology in a controlled enviornment is a much different than fixing this uncontrolled disaster ?

              mbmbn


You have some misconception that doing anything that far under the water is a controlled environment.

So you don't think that people who actually build robotics and submersibles to work at this depth and are skilled in using them have any insights on what can be done with those same vehicles?

Or are you just looking for something to complain about?

What exactly is Obama supposed to do about the leak?



< Message edited by flcouple2009 -- 6/2/2010 6:08:43 PM >

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:07:30 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		Why are you so unhappy that you can't see how silly that post was?

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:08:14 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		Tort reform applies to legal action. It does not apply to the EPA fines and actions that can be levied against them, which I hope happens in this case. I do agree that putting the blame on Obama for every ill in the US is a convenient but otherwise faulty expression of frustration

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:08:47 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I believe Katrina did more than leave folks without food and shelter. Wasn't a levy breached ? Flooding  ? Those two things lead to more problems than loss of food and shelter. It wasn't as simple as finding food and a roof for the people affected by Katrina. That would have been an easy fix.




And yet those people went for 4 days without food or water.

Thank you for making my point for me.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:12:11 PM   
realcoolhand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Tort reform applies to legal action. It does not apply to the EPA fines and actions that can be levied against them, which I hope happens in this case. I do agree that putting the blame on Obama for every ill in the US is a convenient but otherwise faulty expression of frustration


Actually, administrative fines are legal action; tort reform applies to, well, tort actions. That said, administrative regulation often "preempts" tort remedies (complex legal doctrine, preemption, but I'm glad to discuss if you're interested). Short story, if the EPA can fine, the states or others may be unable to sue. Thus, caps on administrative fines have the same economic effect.

In any case, tort reform has been a battle cry of the right for a few years now, and it's worth noting how dangerous it is.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:13:41 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

In fairness, plugging massive under-water oil leaks isn't traditionally something the President is responsible for, or (come to think of it) something that anyone has had to deal with. This is really the sort of risk that we should expect the folks who CREATE the risk to be prepared to deal with; they SHOULD have to figure the FULL cost of solving the problem into the basic cost-benefit analysis they use to evaluate the whether deep-sea drilling is a good business decision.



I don't disagree, real. They SHOULD, but they aren't. So my question becomes, doesn't the President or Government owe it to it's citizens, businesses, industries who are suffering and  to the preservation of the enviornment to take some sort of control/ intervention... something.... to fix this ? IMO, the answer is yes. BP still pays the tab. But can we afford to sit still and keep pointing fingers and telling BP to fix it when they clearly aren't or can't ?

                          mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:17:19 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I would agree except there seems to be no easy fix. The fix would have been to ensure this couldn't happen. That can't really be done.

If it is proven they actually took short cuts they should be punished. If it turns out they followed regulations, the regulations should be stiffened.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:18:40 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The way that I see this disaster, is if the ones concerned, they being the oil exploration companies are clueless what to do with their own mess, then it should be open season for ideas irrespective of where they come from, as it might just be a nobody might have the perfect solution, an idea the thinkers can think on and the do-ers act on.

Often is it the case that those involved in a certain field of expertise are unable to think outide of their expertise box, often it needs an outsider with no knowledge to create an idea, just like it has been for so many inventors who have given us what we have today.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/2/2010 6:19:40 PM >

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:19:03 PM   
LadyCimarron


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Status: offline 		The experts are the ones down there now unable to plug the leak.  We already know what the experts can do - not shit. The experts need help. At least Costner spent his own money investing in innovative ways to clean up oil spills. Tell me what BP has done.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:20:28 PM   
laurell3


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LOL condescending much real? Amazingly a female submissive CAN actually be intelligent and well-versed in the law, imagine that. My experience spans oh about 2/3rds of your actual life.

I'm incredibly well aware of the actual doctrine and it's application and I will tell you that I believe you are absolutely incorrect. I also am personally NOT in favor of tort reform as the role of any competent judge is to ensure the award is relative to the actual facts. That assumes they are competent, many in fact are not.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/2/2010 6:21:11 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:21:21 PM   
LadyCimarron


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Status: offline 		The reason Obama did nothing for a month is because he was listening to and trusting the "experts" you said he should be listening to and trusting now.

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RE: BP Oil Spill : Who's Obama gonna call ? - 6/2/2010 6:21:49 PM   
realcoolhand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

[D]oesn't the President or Government owe it to it's citizens, businesses, industries who are suffering and  to the preservation of the enviornment to take some sort of control/ intervention... something.... to fix this ?



In this case, they should probably light a fire under BP's ass. But as a general rule, we use government to fix intractable problems where the market provides no incentive for private actors to do the fixing, and to create markets that provide those sorts of incentives whenever possible, not to bear the cost creating private wealth.

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