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RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 7:44:39 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobanna
Using BDSM can be a way for abusers to contact people who maybe more susceptible to being lured into a place where the submissive may not be able to differentiate between good play or tpe and bad play (maybe they are new or just naive) until they realize.. hey theres something wrong here ...

I'm betting the rates are the same as in the society at large. Because otherwise every dungeon and munch would be infested with these men. And that means they would have to have sufficient self control to come off in public as good guys while being anything but it in private. And that level of self control isn't common in an abuser.

I believe this is the case. The second part of this is that BDSM communities and places like this site exist.

An abused woman in a vanilla relationship tends to feel embarrassed by the fact that she's abused. They don't tell anyone and actually do their best to keep it hidden until they manage to break the cycle.

Within BDSM communities, we tend to talk more about what we're doing. News of someone that abuses or violates limits and safe words travels fast. There a number of sites, like this one, where questions can be asked without revealing identity or other advice posts can be read. I think these things and having to maintain the rage, make it harder for abusers to have a continued existance within the BDSM communities.

Over the number of years that I've been active within the community, I've found way more instances of date rape, coersion and out right rape, than actual abusive relationships. Unfortunately, the easiest target is a new submissive. They're so excited and don't understand that just because someones labels themselves as a Dominant, it doesn't make it so.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 21

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 8:46:22 AM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Being new to whips and chains does not mean you are new to life. If it's wrong in a vanilla relationship then it's wrong here, a relationship is a relationship is a relationship.

Perfect. I agree with Des.

BDSM doesn't relieve anyone of the burden of using common sense. Failure to insure self-preservation is a problem with broken people, not just kinky folk.

To the OP:
You wonder what happens when a Dom is being deceitful, hiding their true abusive nature? Many of the replies you are getting are pointing out, that, just like in a bad vanilla relationship, the abusee has responsibilities to protect herself, too.

It seems like you don't like the answers, insisting that some special rules and special dangers apply just because it's bdsm.

You aren't likely to get many black and white, simplistic replies to your post, no matter how many times you attempt to rephrase your question.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 22

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:05:18 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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I've never been in an abusive relationship.

And sadly it's not uncommon to have a novice scream "abuse" because she didn't get enough orgasms.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 23

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:05:32 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Well, I've had any number of OTHER people accuse me of being abusive to Carol. Happily though, I have her so brainwashed that she just can't see it and remains dopily in love with me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Bobanna)

Post #: 24

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:06:37 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Jeff- yes my ex was considered abusive because he made me sleep on the floor

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 25

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:06:51 PM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
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quote:

And sadly it's not uncommon to have a novice scream "abuse" because she didn't get enough orgasms.

Give me a break.

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 26

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:07:36 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Jeff- yes my ex was considered abusive because he made me sleep on the floor

*laughs*

Near as I can tell, I'm abusive because I expect my slave to obey me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 27

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:40:49 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

Near as I can tell, I'm abusive because I expect my slave to obey me.

That is pretty darn edgy.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 28

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 1:56:13 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

Bobanna,

quote:

I was wondering how many subs/slaves have found themselves in a relationship where the person they thought was their Master/Dom/Domme (or hiding under the title of Master/Dom/Domme) actually turned out to be an abuser. (Out of control, violent, emotionally abusive, sexually abusive) If so, how did you handle it?

I have never been in an abusive relationship of any sort. However, I have noticed something when many discuss previous relationships on the kneel. Please understand this doesn't apply to all, but certainly a portion of the submissives and slaves I've come in contact with. There's an overwhelming propensity to associate acts of violence and the omission of self-control to the dynamic in some fashion. The behavior was excused or ignored and considered conduct becoming by one in the position of authority. I've heard and read some pretty interesting accounts that leave me scratching my head in all seriousness. I believe much of this is dependent on the state of mind of the submissive during the mating process and her ability to choose a partner that is healthy inside and out.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Bobanna)

Post #: 29

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 4:05:38 PM

MarcEsadrian

Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobanna

... but there is a hidden anger or rage involved on the Tops side.

Just to clarify, this "hidden anger" concept, while not complete bunk, isn't always the most accurate way of explaining motives for excessive cruelty. Sometimes doling out tremendous physical or emotional cruelty doesn't need much of a reason, particularly for dyed-in-the-wool sadists.

And abuse...well, that's a fairly complex matter to discuss among those in the crowd who may subscribe to terms like metaconsent / CNC. Some see insistence of personal isolation or strict information control as abusive, whereas I see it as par for the course in an M/s relationship. I suppose it suffices to say we all have different ideas about what constitutes abuse. As for how you handle it, first you must clearly define what is abusive to you. This sort of stuff should be talked about prior to engaging in meaningful submission—and of slavery, even more so.

Two red flags I do highly recommend keeping an eye out for, no matter the depth of your servitude:

Chronic Duplicity
Excessive misrepresentation of a would-be Master or Mistress's personal character or true motives from the get-go, and continued extreme manipulative / insincere behavior. It's hard to rattle off a laborious recipe on how to size it up, but it's perhaps best to say you know it when you see it. Nothing good comes from interminable ASPD.

Destructive Negligence
Dilapidation that occurs to the stability of the relationship as a result of poor leadership, pathological carelessness, very poor communication skills, extreme insensitivity, extreme immaturity or passive-aggressive mind games. These weaken rather than strengthen whatever the relationship dynamic may be.

If you find yourself eyeball deep in these two swamps, removing thyself and giving your submission to another who will make productive use of it is perfectly legal in my book.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to Bobanna)

Post #: 30

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/4/2010 10:26:29 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Just to clarify, this "hidden anger" concept, while not complete bunk, isn't always the most accurate way of explaining motives for excessive cruelty. Sometimes doling out tremendous physical or emotional cruelty doesn't need much of a reason, particularly for dyed-in-the-wool sadists.

In all fairness to the sadists amongst us I will strongly suggest that the girl be very clear about what she's walking into. More than one believed they could handle it or assumed he was merely kidding when discussing his appetite. Everything has a scale and it behooves you to have some idea where he falls along it.

quote:

And abuse...well, that's a fairly complex matter to discuss among those in the crowd who may subscribe to terms like metaconsent / CNC. Some see insistence of personal isolation or strict information control as abusive, whereas I see it as par for the course in an M/s relationship. I suppose it suffices to say we all have different ideas about what constitutes abuse. As for how you handle it, first you must clearly define what is abusive to you. This sort of stuff should be talked about prior to engaging in meaningful submission—and of slavery, even more so.

In my opinion areas of discomfort would be a more appropriate definition. The behavior described may not be abusive but is clearly something the individual involved may find disquieting. Since we're discussing M/s relationships the relativity of such is always "as it stands." Things change and it is possible that no becomes a yes later on.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

Post #: 31

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 2:20:09 AM

TheRaptorJesus

Posts: 640
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've never been in an abusive relationship.

And sadly it's not uncommon to have a novice scream "abuse" because she didn't get enough orgasms.

Yeah, or because they got raped, maybe?

_____________________________

What if your God... were a motherfucking DINOSAUR?!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 32

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 7:37:11 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
And sadly it's not uncommon to have a novice scream "abuse" because she didn't get enough orgasms.

This is true too. Master's ex once told him that she wanted him to "push" her pain limits during a scene. He obliged. The next day she called her ex saying that Master had abused her. (Oh, the drama with this chick)

Luckily for him, the scene in question took place at a play party. There were witnesses to her request and the fact that she had a safeword and never used it. She was attempting to gain sympathy from her ex and didn't care who she stepped on to get there.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 33

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 7:47:25 AM

MarcEsadrian

Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
In all fairness to the sadists amongst us I will strongly suggest that the girl be very clear about what she's walking into. More than one believed they could handle it or assumed he was merely kidding when discussing his appetite. Everything has a scale and it behooves you to have some idea where he falls along it.

A salient point, and a great overall general rule. Accountability for one's own choices is the flip side to the popular "abuse" discussion in this circle we all share—though some inevitably take issue with the hint of such a suggestion. I'm aware we can only see what we can see, but as you said, sometimes it's not a matter of looking clearly enough before you leap.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 34

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 9:03:35 AM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobanna

I am asking in the context of a submissive going into a relationship where the person (Top) is hiding behind the label of Master/Dom/Domme and may blatantly state the sub will be struck, called names, and so on ... but there is a hidden anger or rage involved on the Tops side. Using BDSM can be a way for abusers to contact people who maybe more susceptible to being lured into a place where the submissive may not be able to differentiate between good play or tpe and bad play (maybe they are new or just naive) until they realize.. hey theres something wrong here ... I understand abuse can happen everywhere and in every type of relationship, but I'm asking in the context of a D/s BDSM situation.

i was a fool and ended up in such a relationship; a man who walked a very fine line between reality and fantasy...

the more i gave, the more he took; the more he took, the shittier i felt...

i ended the relationship, only to have him break in and almost kill me...

the police came and stated that under no uncertain circumstances, if i pressed charges, i would more than likely have my kiddo taken away from me because of my proclivities...

i didn't press charges, though, i do happen to know some pretty shady and tough cookies that paid him a visit on my behalf.

two years later, i found that he was in prison for murder.

(in reply to Bobanna)

Post #: 35

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 9:43:08 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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~ Fast Reply ~

I personally qualify a behavior as abusive if it causes harm to ones spirit. I have been in such relationships, and because I chose those relationships for myself, I hold myself accountable for remaining in them as long as I did - - for whatever my reasons. This is why I disagree with the notion of "If there's consent, it's not abusive." I consented many times to behaviors that ultimately deteriorated my overall well being. I consented because of self image problems (I didn't deserve any better) or because I thought it was the right thing to do, or because I was persuaded to consent...and a number of other reasons. When the pit in my stomach constantly hurt, when I was afraid to voice an opinion, when I constantly walked on eggshells...those were signs of inner wilting, due to mistreatment that I consented to.

I could stand from mountaintops, shouting for justice and the condemnation of those who treated me poorly, but I would much rather move forward in life, focusing on the good that's ahead, using what I learned from the past to improve my future.

To note, I liked Marc's description of "Destructive Negligence" as this is something I am quite familiar with. I recall a huge internal struggle with staying true to my commitment, along with believing "I'm a slave; I have to take this from him as his property" versus an inner pull for self preservation. It was a difficult place to be, so thank you, Marc, for spelling that out so well.

Lastly, if I may add, it is one thing to be lied to. It is another to choose to believe those lies because of ones desire for them to be true. I've been guilty of that before, as well.

As much as people do not want to admit this, we often enable the abuse we receive.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to daddysliloneds)

Post #: 36

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 9:52:02 AM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobanna

I was wondering how many subs/slaves have found themselves in a relationship where the person they thought was their Master/Dom/Domme (or hiding under the title of Master/Dom/Domme) actually turned out to be an abuser. (Out of control, violent, emotionally abusive, sexually abusive)

i was in a situation that was a bit different, but i believe it still applies.

Because i am a submissive male, i always feel rather safe in my relationships. After all, i am always stronger than my Domme. However, years ago i was with a Domme who had a habit of indulging in illegal drugs. She would often be high before i arrived. Then she would want to play. To me, BDSM play while under the influence of drugs is unsafe. So i felt that she had the ability to become an abuser (though her abuse would have been drug induced).

i ultimately ended the relationship because i don't agree with the use of illegal drugs, and i felt that mixing drugs with BDSM is quite dangerous, and could easily evolve into abuse.

(in reply to Bobanna)

Post #: 37

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 10:49:38 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

A salient point, and a great overall general rule. Accountability for one's own choices is the flip side to the popular "abuse" discussion in this circle we all share—though some inevitably take issue with the hint of such a suggestion. I'm aware we can only see what we can see, but as you said, sometimes it's not a matter of looking clearly enough before you leap.

We're aware that sadism involves three levels that can be specifically targeted by the dominant. Ideally the submissive has some idea of her ambivalence towards one or the other. For some physical sadism is fine but the mental and emotional sort are too much. But here comes the gray, especially when we're talking M/s. The unknown cannot be discounted. Relating in this manner will always include an element of risk for both parties.

I could address the naivete in terms of misconceptions, expectations, and the errant belief that one can anticipate everything that follows. Which returns us to the discussion of what is M/s? Perhaps the most responsible thing the girl can do is to be clear on his definition and to reexamine hers before the decision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Lastly, if I may add, it is one thing to be lied to. It is another to choose to believe those lies because of ones desire for them to be true. I've been guilty of that before, as well.

As much as people do not want to admit this, we often enable the abuse we receive.

Excellent points!

I'm responsible for all the calamity in my life. Whether I willingly engaged or unconsciously allowed it. I made a decision to compromise my authenticity for situations that led to my undoing. The buck stops here. It always does.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

Post #: 38

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/5/2010 11:00:26 AM

MarcEsadrian

Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

To note, I liked Marc's description of "Destructive Negligence" as this is something I am quite familiar with. I recall a huge internal struggle with staying true to my commitment, along with believing "I'm a slave; I have to take this from him as his property" versus an inner pull for self preservation. It was a difficult place to be, so thank you, Marc, for spelling that out so well.

I believe there is a fine line there at times. Obviously, serving as a consensual slave has its challenges—that is, if you really wish to embody the essence of the idea. There is a lot a slave should accept with grace that most of society would deem abusive and exploitative. There is no question about that in my mind—but when your roots wither from lack of sustenance or firm soil, when you have realized that you are submitting to a mirage turned moron who subverts your mental stability at every turn either through irresponsibility, pathological mind games or astronomical stupidity, it's time to redirect your energies into a more worthy pursuit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Lastly, if I may add, it is one thing to be lied to. It is another to choose to believe those lies because of ones desire for them to be true.

Well said. There does come a time, I believe, when naivety or ignorance ends and enabling our own reluctant self-torture begins. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result isn't the definition of insanity; it's more akin to repetition compulsion, as it's called in the world of psychology.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 39

RE: Doms/Masters who were actually abusers - 6/6/2010 9:51:06 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Besides you will see it when he insists you stop reading anything about bdsm and just listen to him, that you can't have other sub friends to bounce questions off, etc. And that isolationist stuff is the same as used among vanilla abusers. Being new to whips and chains does not mean you are new to life. If it's wrong in a vanilla relationship then it's wrong here, a relationship is a relationship is a relationship. Honesty, mutual respect, open communication are needed no matter what you do in bed.

I cannot fathom how not reading about BDSM could remotely be considered abuse. Particularly since the information put forth is not credentialed and is solely based on personal experiences and opinions of the practitioners. You can't get a license in this stuff and bias is always a factor. If the dominant elects to filter the information the submissive is subjected to that is his right to do so. One would think that a girl that finds such objectionable would address it beforehand. The behavior mentioned goes hand in hand with right of access and if she chooses not to explore his perspective the onus is on her for failing to do such.

Isolation isn't necessarily abusive either. I've been on cruises where receptivity was limited and communicating with me could prove problematic depending on our location in the sea. I'm clearly isolated due to an activity I willingly engaged in. Again, I think much of this deflects the blame on the abuser with very little accountability being levied towards the individual that chose to become involved. You did raise an important point about not being new to life. I remain astounded by some of the questions put forth by people with significant time under their belt. The idea being that ones lifestyle choices effectively negate the common sense you've attained thus far is hard to swallow. As a matter of fact, it is truthfully a makeshift excuse some utilize to validate their irresponsibility and poor decision making in partner selection. But whatever floats your boat.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 40

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