RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th

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angelikaJ -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 5:13:29 PM)
"There was an american flag clearly visible on the ship was there not? " I don't know. You are so adamant about it, I am guessing you were there? [;)] This could be a case of He said/He said. As for the rest of it, what we have is a lot of unknowns strung together to form speculations about the important questions. And we don't have the answers. We will never know the answers; the people who knew them have died. The source of the report that rescue planes were turned back twice is attributed to the Liberty's senior Naval Security Group officer, Lieutenent Commander David Lewis. As for the much of this: some things we will just never know and much of what is written (even here) can not be *proven* as fact.

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 5:23:27 PM)
It would appear that you are not interested in taking any time to read any of the 136,000 hits that simply typing in to google uss liberty. You seem instead to be saying "so fucking what ...who fucking cares. Why do you even bother posting if you are not interested in learning?

angelikaJ -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 5:38:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx It would appear that you are not interested in taking any time to read any of the 136,000 hits that simply typing in to google uss liberty. You seem instead to be saying "so fucking what ...who fucking cares. Why do you even bother posting if you are not interested in learning? Actually, I have spent a few hours reading about this. It is just that I have been reading sources that offer more than one perspective. I always try to do that whenever possible, and it usually is possible. And if you were to go back and read my post, you might see that I never actually attacked you...hence the wink. Nor did I write anything that is any more or less 'untrue' than you did in this thread provided we are not aiming for anything actually provable. The only difference is I did not proclaim it in any sort of aggressive manner.

Politesub53 -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 5:40:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or This is no joke. Not in the least, and is substantiated. But the idea was to blame it on Egypt, with whom Isreal was at war at the time. This is not Conspiracyland and I'm not taking that insinuation all that well - from anyone. This was one of this county's darkest days, in fact I consider it darker than 9/11. At least we are not sure if the WTC attack was supported by some elements of the US government. In the case of the USS Liberty there is no doubt, and it was at the highest level, the oval office. It was not incompetence, it was straight out treason. Term, are you saying that the oval office was involved in the attack, or just hushed up the truth afterwards ? I have no doubt the attack on the Liberty was intentional. I doubt any nation would want a spy ship so close to a war zone. I dont think the US was involed in the attack in anyway though, just the cover up of the facts. I also read someplace, but cant recall where, that the planes that were turned back were on the way to bomb Cairo, and not to defend the ship.

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 5:57:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx It would appear that you are not interested in taking any time to read any of the 136,000 hits that simply typing in to google uss liberty. You seem instead to be saying "so fucking what ...who fucking cares. Why do you even bother posting if you are not interested in learning? Actually, I have spent a few hours reading about this. It is just that I have been reading sources that offer more than one perspective. I always try to do that whenever possible, and it usually is possible. Me too. And if you were to go back and read my post, you might see that I never actually attacked you...hence the wink. Nor did I write anything that is any more or less 'untrue' than you did in this thread provided we are not aiming for anything actually provable. What is provable is that the liberty was attacked while flying the u.s. flag. What is provable is that several israeli pilots repeatedly reported that it was a u.s. ship. What is provable is the the israeli pilots who refused to participate in the attack were court martialed. What is provable is that there was no congressional investigation of this incident. What is provable is that the israeli government paid reparations. What is provable is that aircraft were launched from u.s. carriers to protect the liberty and were recalled. What is provable is the liberty was attacked by israeli aircraft. What is provable is that the liberty was under survelance by the israeli airforce for more than 8 hours before the attack. What is provable is the the u.s. has lied in the past about being attacked(gulf of tonkin). The only difference is I did not proclaim it in any sort of aggressive manner. I have personal first hand knowledge of similar operations in a different theater so perhaps I have some amount of passion in this area which is generated from that knowledge.]/b]

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:03:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or This is no joke. Not in the least, and is substantiated. But the idea was to blame it on Egypt, with whom Isreal was at war at the time. This is not Conspiracyland and I'm not taking that insinuation all that well - from anyone. This was one of this county's darkest days, in fact I consider it darker than 9/11. At least we are not sure if the WTC attack was supported by some elements of the US government. In the case of the USS Liberty there is no doubt, and it was at the highest level, the oval office. It was not incompetence, it was straight out treason. Term, are you saying that the oval office was involved in the attack, or just hushed up the truth afterwards ? The "60 minutes" article claims it was orchestrated from the oval office. I have no doubt the attack on the Liberty was intentional. I doubt any nation would want a spy ship so close to a war zone. Why would israel attack a spy ship of her ally the u.s.? I dont think the US was involed in the attack in anyway though, just the cover up of the facts. I also read someplace, but cant recall where, that the planes that were turned back were on the way to bomb Cairo, and not to defend the ship. Why would marked u.s. aircraft attack egypt? We were not at war with egypt.

Termyn8or -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:08:43 PM)
"We will never know the answers; the people who knew them have died" How convenient. OK, this must be a story just made up by some old folks with too much time on their hands. It is so clear now, they were in it for the money I guess. My friend from Poland, I wonder how much his Granfather made lying to his progeny about the Russians commiting the massacre in the Katyn forest, rather than parroting the party line that the Germans did it. What price do you put on lying to your family ? Man, this being honest shit just doesn't pay. No wonder so few do it. And I'd like to touch on the validity of the 60 Minutes report. Am I the only one who is aware of the court ruling(s) on the issue ? " The court agreed with WTVT’s (Fox) argument “that the FCC’s policy against the intentional falsification of the news — which the FCC has called its “news distortion policy” — does not qualify as the required “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102.[...] Because the FCC’s news distortion policy is not a “law, rule, or regulation” under section 448.102, Akre has failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower’s statute.”[1] Just a small sliver from the tip of a very ugly iceberg. So, if everybody lies except the government, the axiom "follow the money" should be applied correct ? No this must be an exception, because the government seems to have unlimited money. You ALL had better reconsider what you consider a reliable source before it's too late. I mean hell, we could wind up invading bumfuct Iraq someday for no good reason or even covering up dirty deals. One day we might even start calling "bribing" "lobbying" instead. But perhaps it is all a mistake. My neighbor got dismissed from his job for making a mistake that cost the company tens of thousands of dollars. I guess at $60K a year his duty to be diligent and do the correct thing is much more than that of say,,,,,, the President of the US. And all that lobbying money, that's all really just a gift. Like when you bring your teacher an apple. And they will fix the economy as well, so expect to make alot more money in the future, while prices go down. Enough for now. You can reset your sarcasm detectors back to "low". Read more: http://foxnewsboycott.com/resources/fox-can-lie-lawsuit/#ixzz0qJf9f0lX about that partricular case. T

angelikaJ -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:27:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx What is provable is that the liberty was attacked while flying the u.s. flag. What is provable is that several israeli pilots repeatedly reported that it was a u.s. ship. What is provable is the the israeli pilots who refused to participate in the attack were court martialed. What is provable is that there was no congressional investigation of this incident. What is provable is that the israeli government paid reparations. What is provable is that aircraft were launched from u.s. carriers to protect the liberty and were recalled. What is provable is the liberty was attacked by israeli aircraft. What is provable is that the liberty was under survelance by the israeli airforce for more than 8 hours before the attack. I can clearly see you are passionate about this, but I do not know why you are arguing over things that are accepted as fact. LBJ did not want to get into a war with Israel or damage our relationship with our "allies" and the planes were called back -- twice it seems. That is a common detail in the accounts, but as I mentioned, it seems to be attributable back to one source. I plan on seeing if there are more sources to corroberate this with. No one disputes that The USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli aircraft and naval vessels. No one disputes that Israel paid around 13 million in reparations (and why does that seem suspicious to you?). You keep arguing over things that are non-arguable. That just makes no sense at all. Some of the other things above I have seen differing accounts. That doesn't make your opinions any less important to you but it also doesn't make my wanting to research both sides wrong either. Apologies for spelling. I need sleep.

Termyn8or -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:27:57 PM)
It seems you got in edgewise thom. Indeed, we were not at war with Egypt. I am not saying that it was just a coverup afterwards. That would be too hard to believe after whatever parts of what's been said deemed credible are taken into consideration. One soldier recounted waving at an Israeli pilot as they circled the ship. Remember I caught wind of this some time ago, which maybe means that there was less embellishment. Not that I can be sure, but you can bet your ass that's why I have a fetish for old books. Like the electric car which seems to be impractical to build today. A book I have around somewhere written in the early 1900s (I mean pre 1910) not only depicts them, but gives technical details on their operation. So in a hundred and ten years there have been no enabling advances, though we have cellphones louder than some boomboxes that stay charged for weeks. Yup, makes perfect sense to me. How about you ? I can't say we agree on everything of course, but the point is some of us discriminate when it comes to information, the less intelligent simply mis-consider the source. I mean, who is more full of shit, Alex Jones or Fox news ? I know it's a tough question. Consider it rhetorical for now. But I can say this much, those oldtimers who used to say not to believe anything you hear and only half of what you see seem to be getting smarter every day, despite being all dead and stuff :-) Ironic how the age of information has not resulted in very many being more informed. T

angelikaJ -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:32:06 PM)
Termy, I really don't think there was any kind of conspiracy involving the deaths of LBJ and people like McNamara as well as Menachim Begin etc.on the other side.

Politesub53 -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:36:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Why would israel attack a spy ship of her ally the u.s.? Why do you think Israel attacked the Liberty ? It could be they didnt want the US knowing their intentions to attack Syrian positions the following day. quote: Why would marked u.s. aircraft attack egypt? We were not at war with egypt. There was a BBC show called Dead In The Water. Thats where the claim was made.

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 6:56:04 PM)
quote: I can clearly see you are passionate about this, but I do not know why you are arguing over things that are accepted as fact. Then I must have misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you did not believe some or all off the above statements. LBJ did not want to get into a war with Israel or damage our relationship with our "allies" and the planes were called back -- twice it seems. That is a common detail in the accounts, but as I mentioned, it seems to be attributable back to one source. That source being the u.s. navy. I plan on seeing if there are more sources to corroberate this with. No one disputes that The USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli aircraft and naval vessels. No one disputes that Israel paid around 13 million in reparations (and why does that seem suspicious to you?). Not suspicious at all just validation that they committed the attack...nothing more. If someone disputed that they attacked the liberty then why pay reparations. You keep arguing over things that are non-arguable. That just makes no sense at all. Sorry I was under the impression that some of the above stated facts were in dispute. Some of the other things above I have seen differing accounts. Which of the above do you not feel are provable? That doesn't make your opinions any less important to you but it also doesn't make my wanting to research both sides wrong either. I never said it did. I do not know the reason why it happened. One can only guess at what might have been the most logical reason. Apologies for spelling. Don't worry about spelling I do it just to piss people off[;)] I need sleep.

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/8/2010 7:10:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Why would israel attack a spy ship of her ally the u.s.? Why do you think Israel attacked the Liberty ? I have read a lot of your post. You are a educated and logical person...what is your opinion? Why did the u.s. fake the attack in the tonkin gulf? Why did the u.s. allow the japs to bomb pearl harbor they had plenty of advance warning? Why did churchill allow the italians to take ethiopia? It could be they didnt want the US knowing their intentions to attack Syrian positions the following day. Looking at a map of the area of the attack how does that relate to the israeli attack on syria? How would the liberty be in a position to do that and if so would't israel simply ask the u.s. to "give us a bit of room mate we've got some stuff going on that if you had prior knowledge of might make for a bit of a sticky wicket" quote: Why would marked u.s. aircraft attack egypt? We were not at war with egypt. There was a BBC show called Dead In The Water. Thats where the claim was made. When the u.s. carrier based aircraft tried to intimidate the cuban airforce during the bay of pigs invasion all of the markings were painted out...this was ment to create "plausable deniability" Of course it does beg the question of who else in the world has carrier launched A 4 aircraft?

DCWoody -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 8:34:44 AM)
ITT - X refuses to admit being wrong, as expected.

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 11:22:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody ITT - X refuses to admit being wrong, as expected. What exactly is that you feel I am wrong about?

Politesub53 -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 11:39:43 AM)
Thompson, re your questions to me. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, so I suspect the Israelis could have been trying to keep things secret. I dont know enough to know if the Liberty could eavesdrop from where it was. I am assuming it could though. The Liberty was attacked on the 8th. Operation Hammer, the codename for the attack on the Golan Heights, was launched the following day. This operation was initially cancelled then given the go ahead. I suspect Israel wanted to occupy the heights prior to any ceasefire. Moshe Dayan had said in his book that Israel always had an eye on the Golan Heights, and would send tractors into the area to tempt the Syrians to open fire. Sources are in the Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan#Six_Day_War_.281967.29 Who do you feel authorised the attack and why ?

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 11:53:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Thompson, re your questions to me. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, so I suspect the Israelis could have been trying to keep things secret. I dont know enough to know if the Liberty could eavesdrop from where it was. I am assuming it could though. The Liberty was attacked on the 8th. Operation Hammer, the codename for the attack on the Golan Heights, was launched the following day. This operation was initially cancelled then given the go ahead. I suspect Israel wanted to occupy the heights prior to any ceasefire. Moshe Dayan had said in his book that Israel always had an eye on the Golan Heights, and would send tractors into the area to tempt the Syrians to open fire. Sources are in the Wiki link For israel not to control the golan heights is moronic given syria's attitude toward israel. If I were israel and I had it nothing short of a u.n. occupation of the golan heights (and I mean a serious occupation) would ever cause me to let it go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan#Six_Day_War_.281967.29 Who do you feel authorised the attack and why ? There can be no doubt that it was authorized by the highest level of the israeli government. The program by "60 minutes" would indicate that the president of the u.s. agreed with it. Why ????? I would speculate that if it could be blamed on someone other than israel then it might play out like the aftermath of the "tonkin gulf attack" on the u.s.

Politesub53 -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 12:01:23 PM)
Thompson, do you feel the US would get involved and risk a war with Russia, especially in the 60s. Why would Dayan say what he did in his book, if it wasnt factual ? He even said Syria wasnt a threat at that time.

DCWoody -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 12:25:24 PM)
I was fairly certain I'd made that clear, but apparently not.... You said "Take a couple of google strokes and you will even find the tape of johnson saying "I want that god damn ship on the bottom." I said "[the tape] Doesn't exist." I've repeated that a few times, pointing out that the quote you attribute to it is in reality double or triple hearsay, first stated decades after the event. So, you were wrong. Will you admit such?

thompsonx -> RE: 43 years ago today, June 8th (6/9/2010 3:16:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Thompson, do you feel the US would get involved and risk a war with Russia, especially in the 60s. That was when I was in the military and from my own personal experience I would say yes. I cannot begin to count the times we were a half click away from it. Why would Dayan say what he did in his book, if it wasnt factual ? He even said Syria wasnt a threat at that time. From the wiki article you cite they point out that when he was against taking the golan heights he was part of the opposition. When that changed he was all for it. The points I made previously concerning the golan heights were from a strictly military point of view.

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