Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (Full Version)

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Sanity -> Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 3:29:21 PM)


On average, people on the left fail Economics 101 when polled using the scientific method:

quote:

Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?

Self-identified liberals and Democrats do badly on questions of basic economics.

Who is better informed about the policy choices facing the country—liberals, conservatives or libertarians? According to a Zogby International survey that I write about in the May issue of Econ Journal Watch, the answer is unequivocal: The left flunks Econ 101.

<snip>

Consider one of the economic propositions in the December 2008 poll: "Restrictions on housing development make housing less affordable." People were asked if they: 1) strongly agree; 2) somewhat agree; 3) somewhat disagree; 4) strongly disagree; 5) are not sure.

Basic economics acknowledges that whatever redeeming features a restriction may have, it increases the cost of production and exchange, making goods and services less affordable. There may be exceptions to the general case, but they would be atypical.

<snip>

In this case, percentage of conservatives answering incorrectly was 22.3%, very conservatives 17.6% and libertarians 15.7%. But the percentage of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly was 67.6% and liberals 60.1%. The pattern was not an anomaly.

<snip>

Full article here





SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 4:02:59 PM)

People on the right fail social ethics.

Those on the right can't see past the dollar sign to the suffering it causes, if the housing is social housing I'm all for no restrictions.

And build it next to those fuckers that paid through the nose.



Sanity -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 6:37:23 PM)


Its more cruel to train people to live on handouts than to just leave them to their own devices. Those on the right give far more to charity than those on the left while resisting governmental welfare programs because they are damaging to those who are targeted for such vote purchasing programs as well as to the overall economy, and therefore damaging to the welfare of the entire nation.







Musicmystery -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:08:03 PM)

Of course, the scientific method is about observation, hypothesis, testing.....nothing to do with polling methods.



TheHeretic -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:10:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course, the scientific method is about observation, hypothesis, testing.....nothing to do with polling methods.



Deflect, distract, derail.



Musicmystery -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:12:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course, the scientific method is about observation, hypothesis, testing.....nothing to do with polling methods.

Deflect, distract, derail.

I don't think so. If you're gonna crow about using the scientific method and you clearly don't know what it is, that deserves brief comment.

If you or others want to start making it the point of the thread, I'd say you're contributing healthily to the alleged derailment.

Your mileage may vary.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:14:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course, the scientific method is about observation, hypothesis, testing.....nothing to do with polling methods.

Deflect, distract, derail.

I don't think so. If you're gonna crow about using the scientific method and you clearly don't know what it is, that deserves brief comment.

If you or others want to start making it the point of the thread, I'd say you're contributing healthily to the alleged derailment.

Your mileage may vary.


So ... Zogby isn't a real, scientifically based polling organization?

Are is it that just all polls are faked up?

You'd have a better chance of convincing me if you show me how the poll violates the science of polling and statistics.

I'm not going to look otherwise, because my biases says it's accurate. [8D]

Firm



Musicmystery -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:24:28 PM)

No, Firm, that's not at all what I said.

I pointed out that "the scientific method" is not a polling method. That doesn't mean polling is not done without adherence to standard statistical practice for that (yes, scientific) discipline.

But if we must, OK, lets pick apart the poll.

First, education level and socio-economic status are important indicators here, and they are missing.

Second, questions 4, 5, and 7 are problematic. Four is vague, and "not sure" doesn't really cut it. Certainly a monopoly would fit that description, though yes, that's not a definition of monopoly. Five is quite debatable--if some companies are, even a few, then the question is correct. Seven ignores market equilibrium, the heart of the wage debate. If equilibrium is already above the set wage, nothing would happen. A minor point, perhaps, but then it's supposed to be an economics literacy test.



TheHeretic -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:28:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
If you're gonna crow about using the scientific method and you clearly don't know what it is, that deserves brief comment.




Comment made.

As for the article in question, I'll give you that at least one of the 8 questions is highly problematic, but even if we play with the scores to account for that, the self-identified lefties seem sorta stupid.




Brain -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:33:02 PM)

I think economic models are flawed because they don't include the cost of pollution. The oil spill in the Gulf is a good Example. I think there should have been restrictions on British Petroleum to ensure they were producing the oil safely.

Of course, that would indeed increase the cost of production. But economic models are flawed because there is a significant cost to clean up the destruction caused by the oil in the Gulf. BP needs to be compelled to pay the total amount of those costs but what happens in the case of pollution is that companies get away with passing those pollution costs onto taxpayers.

These archaic economic models may have been adequate in the 18th century but they need to be revised or updated to reflect true outcomes. Liberals aren’t stupid they are creative and think outside the box. I think liberals are well-educated and intuitively foresee these issues and this is reflected in their responses -that is why they are progressive.




Musicmystery -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 7:33:33 PM)

For what it's worth, Rich, just going by their posting history, quite a few here, conservatives as well, would have answered 2, 5 and 6 incorrectly.

Additionally, none of these are fifth grade questions--they're Econ 101 stuff.

And as Klein admits, none of the eight questions specifically challenge the political sensibilities of conservatives and libertarians. It would have been interesting to the poll with another eight questions slanted in the other direction.

That, Firm, would have been a better "scientific" way to go about it.

This poll was designed partisan, and got the result it was written to "find."




pahunkboy -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 8:51:50 PM)

--Not so fast.

Why are we in this mess?    We have had 8 years of GOP rule.



kittinSol -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 8:57:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

People on the right fail social ethics.



And geography - especially here. The dudes can't tell their South from their East (which explains much [8D]) .



FirmhandKY -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 9:08:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

For what it's worth, Rich, just going by their posting history, quite a few here, conservatives as well, would have answered 2, 5 and 6 incorrectly.

Additionally, none of these are fifth grade questions--they're Econ 101 stuff.

And as Klein admits, none of the eight questions specifically challenge the political sensibilities of conservatives and libertarians. It would have been interesting to the poll with another eight questions slanted in the other direction.

That, Firm, would have been a better "scientific" way to go about it.

This poll was designed partisan, and got the result it was written to "find."


Thank you MM.

Firm



Elisabella -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 9:25:20 PM)

quote:

5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree).


This question is pretty bad. What exactly is the standard for exploitation here? And why are they using terms like "unenlightened" instead of "incorrect"?



DarkSteven -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 9:44:55 PM)

Wait a doggone second. Question #5 is entirely political - there's a darn good chance that they are being exploited, but it's not a given based on the question.  It will be answered according to political leaning - saying that someone is economically astute based on a vague question like that is wrong.  Question #6 - the stupid liberal response happens to be something that Ross Perot pushed during the debates with him, Clinton, and Bush, and I actually believe it. Question #7 - I suspect that raising the minimum wage DOES increase joblessness, but have never seen any actual proof that it does and a lot of proofless arguing.

Question #4 is poorly posed - a monopoly IS a company with the largest market share, namely 100%.

Question #1 is missing the phrase "in a free market economy".  Else Section 8's restrictions could be misinterpreted as a restriction and, due to its subsidy, Section 8 DOES make housing more affordable.

That said, Questions #2 and #3 are pretty clear as written. 



TheHeretic -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 10:14:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
  Else Section 8's restrictions could be misinterpreted as a restriction and, due to its subsidy, Section 8 DOES make housing more affordable.




Not to hijack, Steve, and I'm happy to discuss the subject on a separate thread, but Section 8 does not make housing more affordable. It acts as an artificial prop on rental rates, often putting decent housing above the means of regular working people.

Or do you mean in the impact on the property values of the neighbors?



DarkSteven -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 10:18:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Else Section 8's restrictions could be misinterpreted as a restriction and, due to its subsidy, Section 8 DOES make housing more affordable.




Not to hijack, Steve, and I'm happy to discuss the subject on a separate thread, but Section 8 does not make housing more affordable. It acts as an artificial prop on rental rates, often putting decent housing above the means of regular working people.

Or do you mean in the impact on the property values of the neighbors?


Nope, it DOES make housing more affordable for the renters.  They pay less in rent.

A classical liberal would take it that way, while a classical conservative like you would factor in the cost of the subsidy as well.



TheHeretic -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 10:38:07 PM)

It's subsidized housing, Steve. Maybe it comes in a little check from the tenant, and a bigger check from the administering authority, but the landlord is still getting full price.



DomKen -> RE: Who Is Smarter Than a Fifth Grader (6/9/2010 10:47:03 PM)

Why is a Dec. 2008 poll news today?

But as Steven pointed out these questions are at best poorly worded and at worst outright unanswerable.

Take #6 "Free trade leads to unemployment." Both answers are arguably true. Its a matter of time frame. In the short term free trade causes disruptions in the market which inevitably leads to people losing their jobs but in the longer term the economy expands and more new jobs are created than were lost.

I'm pretty sure i can write 8 biased questions about economics that will be answered "wrong" by cons. Doesn't make conservative dumb or uninformed but any conservative who tries to make hay from the poll presented here is both.



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