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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:07:21 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Again, I am fascinated with how much fresh thought and healthy common sense newcomers to this site show.

I'm sure your astute observation skills note a common denominator for most "newcomers" is a lack of pragmatic actual first hand experience.

"Attitudes and opinions" are quickly amended, as well as often determined irrelevant and useless, when applied to real life situations and experience.

You are coming off as agoraphobic attempting to establish an argument for setting limits and criteria for leaving the comfort zone of your 'home'. Lacking the confidence to consider any argument in contradiction to your position, championing as "healthy" and sensible any source aligned with you. The problem you will have is that no matter the tally on one side or the other, no matter how many 'limits' or conditions you put upon the circumstance where you have the courage to take a step off your threshold; you'll never experience what you thought or planned. If, of course, you have the courage to experience anything at all.

Limit enough variables and you can rationalize any position. Unfortunately life's variables exceed any limits thought possible by the limited mind of man. When they occur, the better foundation to react and interact is to have personal convictions versus third person confirmations.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 41

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:13:13 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Why are you insisting on such a brutal linguistic precision?

No SocratesNot. That is you insisting on brutal linguistic precision. What I am doing is simplifying it.
Whatever question you ask in that way (can), the answer will always be yes they can. So in a way, you are asking a question that you already know the answer to, but you are using it to shape your already decided ideas on how things work.

Had you asked - 'Can a slave chose to have no limits in a TPE relationship' the answer would STILL be a yes because anyone can shape themselves and go into a relationship that they want.

quote:

My actual question is:

If slaves have hard limits in TPE, do they have the right to demand that their Masters respect their hard limits, and can they prevent the Master from breaking the hard limits unless they decide to leave the relationship?

That is a different question altogether to the one you asked initially. A slave can do whatever their Master allows - so the answer is still yes. Does the Master have to agree? No - in the same way that the slave does not have to agree to the limit being broken. But then in either case, the contract is ended and the relationship void. It's not what is allowed that makes a relationship TPE, it's the agreements within it and if they are broken, then the relationship is broken.

the.dark.

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Post #: 42

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:16:51 PM

Ishtarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

If slaves have hard limits in TPE, do they have the right to demand that their Masters respect their hard limits, and can they prevent the Master from breaking the hard limits unless they decide to leave the relationship?

Euhm... no... but then again, that's got nothing to do with TPE, M/s or any BDSM concepts.

NOBODY can prevent their hard limits from being broken unless they are willing to end the relationship if and when the hard limits are broken or about to be broken.

I have a vanilla girlfriend of mine who would most definitely list "infidelity" on her partner's behalf as a hard limit.
She would NEVER accept that he would sexually or intimately engage in anybody besides her.
Even a french kiss would be totally off limits, and him falling in love with another woman without engaging sexually with that woman would also be a hard limit.

All her partners know this when they enter in the relationship with her, and indicate to her that they have no interest in breaking her hard limits.

Yet...
She has had men in the past break her hard limits and still engage in the activities that she hard limited.
At the point where this happened, she had two choices: end the relationship or stay in it.
But at no point in time did she ever have the POWER to make her partner stop breaking her hard limit while still staying in the relationship
She could ask them to stop breaking her hard limits, but she couldn't make them do it.

I've know her to end a relationship before for no other reason than that the man kissed another woman.
And I've know her to stay 2 years with a man who frequently had sex with other women, while lying to her about it.
Even though she did find out about it on several occasions, and the guy was clearly breaking her hard limits, she still elected to stay with him every time.
She did ask him to stop doing it but she was very aware of the fact that she couldn't make him do it.

Ironically they broke up for reasons totally unrelated to her hard limits being broken.

So... if NOBODY can make anybody respect ANY hard limits...
Why would you expect that to be any different for people who choose to label their relationship TPE, or choose to label themselves slaves.

In the end, all of us have only two choices in any relationships we're in: accept the terms of the relationship and stay, or do not accept the terms of the relationship and leave.
Really, this is not as freaking complicated as you make it out to be...

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 6/14/2010 12:21:56 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:40:30 PM

SocratesNot

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Ishtarr, your answer was very intelligent, and I agree with it.
I would add one comment to it.
The closest one can get to preventing their partner from breaking their hard limits is being extremely determined to leave if this happens and actively threatening that they will leave if this happens. Their partners can still choose to break their hard limits, but they are at least discouraged by the very serious threatening that the relationship will end if they do it.

So, if the hard limits are clearly established and if you remind your partner occasionally that you will definitely leave him if he breaks your hard limits and if you sound convincing in this - then this can probably lower the chance of your hard limits being broken.

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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 44

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:54:32 PM

FetishRose

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I think it depends on the relationship, and the compatibility between the kinks of the people involved. If the top enjoys scat play, but it's a hard limit for the bottom, no, that is not TPE, because there is no way the bottom would give in to that, and would likely leave the relationship if asked. However, if both the top and bottom have the same hard limits, then yes, it is TPE, because there is nothing the top would ask that the bottom would not do.

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Post #: 45

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 12:56:02 PM

Ishtarr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

So, if the hard limits are clearly established and if you remind your partner occasionally that you will definitely leave him if he breaks your hard limits and if you sound convincing in this - then this can probably lower the chance of your hard limits being broken.

Only if the dominant partner actually cares enough about the relationship continuing on those terms to accept the limitations the submissive poses on them.

If the dominant partner has as a hard limit "being controlled by the submissive", and they are willing to stick to that hard limit, then the submissive telling the dominant "I will leave you if you do X" would be cause for the dominant to end the relationship because their hard limit would have been broken.

That's the dynamic I had with my previous owner.
He was rather vanilla in sexual preference, didn't engage in BDSM, and scat would have been the FURTHEST thing from his mind to ever try with me.
And yet, if I would have told him "scat is a hard limit of mine that you are not allowed to break, or else I'll leave you" he would have ended the relationship right there and then, because HIS hard limit was me trying to control him, or the relationship I had with him.

Again, you're making this WAY too complicated...

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 6/14/2010 1:10:44 PM >

_____________________________

Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 46

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:00:15 PM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I am really fascinated how much common sense and good judgment newcomers to this website have!

Me too! There's clearly a very broad spectrum, on one hand there's the newcomers with a surprising degree of common sense, meanwhile....

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 47

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:08:45 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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And if you have to continually threaten to leave should he break your hard limits, then the relationship is flawed. People who care about you don't want to do anything that would end the relationship. This really is not rocket science.

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Post #: 48

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:13:40 PM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

I think it depends on the relationship, and the compatibility between the kinks of the people involved. If the top enjoys scat play, but it's a hard limit for the bottom, no, that is not TPE, because there is no way the bottom would give in to that, and would likely leave the relationship if asked. However, if both the top and bottom have the same hard limits, then yes, it is TPE, because there is nothing the top would ask that the bottom would not do.

It actually seems that TPE is more about total compatibility of kinks and limits among partners than about total power exchange.
Actually - total power exchange is just a natural outcome that happens in a D/s relationship if all the kinks and limits of dominant and submissive are compatible.

quote:

If the dominant partner has as a hard limit "being controlled by the submissive"

I can relate to this A LOT. This is actually very common hard limit in patriarchal vanilla relationships and it has more to do with man's pride then anything else.
However, in reality even this hard limit is quite often overridden is subtle ways, and many men don't realize that they are controlled by their wives. Officially, they are always those who decide, officially they always have the last word, but in reality this last word can sometimes (quite often) be "Yes, my darling!"

I'm not saying that this was the case in your relationship, I'm just saying that this is somewhat familiar to me.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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Post #: 49

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:16:23 PM

leadership527

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Or, alternately, you can just do what Carol and I do. That pretty much comes down to, "we love each other and treat each other with the dignity and respect we deserve". When you go down that route, then suddenly all these discussions about limits and various other sorts of relationship-apocalypse scenarios just aren't really relevant or useful. You know it occurs to me that generally in life, I spend WAY more time looking at how I intend to succeed at something than how I might fail. My marriage is no different.... especially because in that case, failure is just plain not an option.

Here, let me give you a realistic exchange between Carol and I.

Me: Honey, I want you to do <insert creepy/scary/whatever thing here>.
Her: Wow, that's creepy/scary/whatever.
Me: Well, let's talk about that.
<much discussion ensues during which we get on the same page>

There... no "limits" problem. The process of "getting on the same page" is going to happen in any relationship. Typically, when two people have a difference of opinion, there's a few ways it can turn out.

a) Ideally, they discuss things and reach a common viewpoint.
b) They fail to reach a common viewpoint but pick a compromise decision
c) They fail to reach a common viewpoint and pick one or the other's position.
d) They fail to reach a common viewpoint or a decision and so it becomes a rift in the relationship.

I'm not personally aware of any other ways it can go. The only difference with Carol and I is that it is me who guides that process. I decide if we will compromise or adopt her viewpoint or mine. This means that choice (d) will never occur. It also means Carol must be prepared to adopt my viewpoint... not just outwardly, but inwardly as well. I suspect another more subtle difference between Carol & I and any vanilla couple anywhere is that by default, it's going to be "My viewpoint". The whole process would never be engaged without significant reason (eg: something that's going on is really, deeply troubling to her). It's also true that because the process is definitely guided, it tends to happen very quickly... oft-times it'd be invisible to an outside observer... it might be a subtle as me picking up on a fleeting facial expression going across her face and reviewing the wisdom of whatever it was I had commanded. When we were vanilla, the whole thing was a lot more cumbersome because nobody was definitely tasked with being responsible for getting closure.

Now, whether that is "TPE" or M/s in your head or anyone else's head is ... well.. up to you and those other people. That's why the label discussion is so stupid. Whatever it is, it's what Carol and I do and at least superficially it pretty clearly looks like "I tell her to do stuff and she obeys".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 50

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:33:52 PM

SocratesNot

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How often it happens in such situations that you decide to compromise or to adopt Carol's position in the end?

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/14/2010 1:34:24 PM >

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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
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Post #: 51

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:36:02 PM

UniqueRaven

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SN, the example you gave in your original post - scat-eating - does happen in the world. There are slaves who are compelled to do such things, and often in a truly non-consensual way (not consensual non-consent). However those slaves are typically not in relationship-based or service-based slavery (such as IronBear discussed), they are in compulsory slavery, or slavery that they entered into consensually but gave up all rights at that point - essentially selling themselves (and yes, it does happen).

However, on these boards, we discuss primarily relationship-based slavery, which is entirely defined by the individuals involved. The example that you gave (again, you knowingly chose an extreme) exists - for most that engage in relationship-based, or service-based slavery - in the realm of internet fantasy, or boogie-man stories told around forum campfires.

The point that you're missing is that most Owners - whether relationship-based or service-based or a combination of both - have an Ownership interest in the value of their slave as their property, just like their car, their hunting dog, or their fine art. They choose to not force their slave to undertake actions that will damage the long term value of the slave as property. Think about it, if your slave is serving as your personal secretary, or has been trained to serve your every sexual whim, are you going to force her to undertake an action that will cause her significant physical harm, or death? No, because that Owner has an interest in her use, and in her continued service to him.

A good slave has value - whether purely service, or love, or fulfillment, or any other reason. Most Owners protect that value above all else, because it is why they own a slave in the first place.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 52

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:49:35 PM

SocratesNot

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quote:

The point that you're missing is that most Owners - whether relationship-based or service-based or a combination of both - have an Ownership interest in the value of their slave as their property, just like their car, their hunting dog, or their fine art. They choose to not force their slave to undertake actions that will damage the long term value of the slave as property.

I understand this, but at the same time this type of argumentation hurts me when I read it. It is a very harsh concept to avoid harming a slave JUST BECAUSE you want them to continue being useful to you. From your argument it seems that they are keeping sleves just out of the interest and because of their usefulness. For me it is incredibly harsh concept to look at people and value them just for their utility and usefulness, as if there isn't anything in themselves for themselves that has any value.
Unfortunately such way of looking at people is not present only in M/s relationships, but is ever more pervasive in ALL types of relationships including vanilla.
And also including non-sexual friendships. Many people want to have friends only if they can use them for something.

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

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Post #: 53

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:52:27 PM

IrishMist

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Fascinating.

Absolutly fucking fascinating.

How can someone who claims to be openminded, be so closeminded at the same time?

Do hard limits exist in TPE?
Of course they do.

Does a slave have the right to demand that her 'master' obey his/her hard limits?
Not if said slave wants to remain within the relationship for long

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 1:52:54 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

There... no "limits" problem. The process of "getting on the same page" is going to happen in any relationship. Typically, when two people have a difference of opinion, there's a few ways it can turn out.

a) Ideally, they discuss things and reach a common viewpoint.
b) They fail to reach a common viewpoint but pick a compromise decision
c) They fail to reach a common viewpoint and pick one or the other's position.
d) They fail to reach a common viewpoint or a decision and so it becomes a rift in the relationship.

I'd like to an an (e) option here -- only because, in a poly household, it has come up on numerous occasions (probably because one of the things that makes our poly situation work is the wide variety of people involved... which also complicates the whole "common ground" scenario *chuckles*)

(e) They fail to reach a common viewpoint or decision, but decide that they care about one another enough that "Agree to disagree" is a healthy solution for them -- then they drop the subject and go on to other things. Party A still likes/wants whatever the issue was... Party B still dislikes/doesn't want whatever the issue was... but they make it a null issue for their situation (and, in our case, Party A still has the option of fulfilling that like/want elsewhere if it is something xhe really wants/likes... one advantage to a multi-person household).

Calla

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Post #: 55

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:00:58 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
How often it happens in such situations that you decide to compromise or to adopt Carol's position in the end?

*scratches head*.... that's a tough question because this so seldom comes up to start with. In recent memory, they've all gone my way except for when I told her to stop being my slave. That one went her way (she's still my slave).

Dame Calla
Interesting on the "agree to disagree" thing. I have mixed thoughts on that. We certainly do that a lot on trivial things like "We disagree on whether or not Thai food is good". But something that is actually relevant between us as a couple... I'm not sure I could allow the "agree to disagree" state and still think of her as my property.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 6/14/2010 2:12:11 PM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 56

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:05:31 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

For me it is incredibly harsh concept to look at people and value them just for their utility and usefulness, as if there isn't anything in themselves for themselves that has any value.

I think, from my perspective, that this is a rather naive perspective. Different people get into different relationships for different reasons. Some of those reasons are purely "mercenary" -- about the service or the sex, etc. The company I work for doesn't give a darn about my happiness -- they're worried about what I can do for them.

The thing is, it is important to know WHY one is getting into a relationship. This is why I am VERY clear in letting those who are interested in getting involved with me know that I am NOT looking for a romantic relationship. What I am looking for is someone who will be "in service" to me -- and the exchange point becomes VERY important in situations like this, and when you break it down, it looks very much like a 'transaction'.

"In exchange for these services, which you will provide with complete obedience, according to -my- protocols, I will take care of -these- needs."

In the end, every relationship breaks down to these things. There is no such thing as "altruism"... we're -all- getting something or expecting something for what we give, whether we openly, honestly acknowledge it or not -- but we don't like to think about the "mercenary" nature of how we relate to others. That being said, even romantic relationships break down to this... "I will love you and care for you, and in exchange, you will love and care for me" is -also- a negotiated give-and-take agreement. Very, very few of us have any interest in doing for another person without getting -something-, even if it is solely recognition for our efforts, in return. Even for those who ask nothing from the outside world in exchange for their services, there tends to be the expectation of a reward in the afterlife ("God" will give me something for what I am doing) or there is an -internal- reward (I feel good/look good when I do this, so I'm going to do it even though it's really hard/expensive/painful). To me, I find it refreshing to see people who actually acknowledge that at least ONE of the motivators for taking good care of the people we are close to is that, by taking care of them, we are, in fact, helping to take care of ourselves.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 57

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:23:38 PM

SocratesNot

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Maybe pure altruism does not exist, but quasi-altruism do exist.
I will define quasi-altruism like this: Quasi-altruism is a behavior in which we apparently selflessly do good to other people, while, in fact, we are motivated by good feelings that we will derive from such action.
For example: I will help the old lady to carry her things, because I will later feel good about myself for doing so.
In this example we don't expect ANYTHING in return from the old lady, our only reward will be our own good feelings.

I could also argue that even pure altruism exist in situations when you really love someone and you genuinely want all the best for them, so they will not do good to them just because you'll later feel good about it, but also because you genuinely want all the best things to happen to them and you will actively strive to make it happen. Even in this case, we'll be rewarded by good feelings, but they were not our only motivation.

Even though quasi-altruism is not perfect, it is still way better than pure materialism.

On this issue - does altruism exist - people will have different opinions - but I find the position that explicitly states that there's no such thing as altruism - to be cold and somewhat cynical.

Even if I personally, never did anything out of pure altruism (actually I did, but I use it as an example), I want to believe, and I do believe that many people do, in fact, commit purely altruistic deeds every day.

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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
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Post #: 58

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:30:22 PM

RCdc

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quote:

In the end, every relationship breaks down to these things. There is no such thing as "altruism"... we're -all- getting something or expecting something for what we give, whether we openly, honestly acknowledge it or not -- but we don't like to think about the "mercenary" nature of how we relate to others. That being said, even romantic relationships break down to this... "I will love you and care for you, and in exchange, you will love and care for me" is -also- a negotiated give-and-take agreement. Very, very few of us have any interest in doing for another person without getting -something-, even if it is solely recognition for our efforts, in return. Even for those who ask nothing from the outside world in exchange for their services, there tends to be the expectation of a reward in the afterlife ("God" will give me something for what I am doing) or there is an -internal- reward (I feel good/look good when I do this, so I'm going to do it even though it's really hard/expensive/painful). To me, I find it refreshing to see people who actually acknowledge that at least ONE of the motivators for taking good care of the people we are close to is that, by taking care of them, we are, in fact, helping to take care of ourselves.

I really agree with this and you are so correct, it's so refreshing to see it. It's a big indicator of self realisation in a person for me.Thank you for posting this.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 59

RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:37:51 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Maybe pure altruism does not exist, but quasi-altruism do exist.

Yes, I did mention quasi-altruism in my post.

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 60

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