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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:40:07 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
In the end, every relationship breaks down to these things. There is no such thing as "altruism"... we're -all- getting something or expecting something for what we give, whether we openly, honestly acknowledge it or not
True, but I still disagree. This fails the common sense test. When I watch some show on TV and someone risks their life to save another, I do not say, "Oh yeah, big deal. He was just being selfish because he didn't want to sleep with himself at night if he'd done nothing". I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:42:29 PM   
SocratesNot


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quote:

quote:

In the end, every relationship breaks down to these things. There is no such thing as "altruism"... we're -all- getting something or expecting something for what we give, whether we openly, honestly acknowledge it or not -- but we don't like to think about the "mercenary" nature of how we relate to others. That being said, even romantic relationships break down to this... "I will love you and care for you, and in exchange, you will love and care for me" is -also- a negotiated give-and-take agreement. Very, very few of us have any interest in doing for another person without getting -something-, even if it is solely recognition for our efforts, in return. Even for those who ask nothing from the outside world in exchange for their services, there tends to be the expectation of a reward in the afterlife ("God" will give me something for what I am doing) or there is an -internal- reward (I feel good/look good when I do this, so I'm going to do it even though it's really hard/expensive/painful). To me, I find it refreshing to see people who actually acknowledge that at least ONE of the motivators for taking good care of the people we are close to is that, by taking care of them, we are, in fact, helping to take care of ourselves.


I really agree with this and you are so correct, it's so refreshing to see it.  It's a big indicator of self realisation in a person for me.Thank you for posting this.

the.dark.


Why are people so fucking cynical?
Even if I never in my life felt any love and altruism I would still want to believe that both things do exist.
I would recommend to all of you to read the book "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm.


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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 2:57:45 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Why are people so fucking cynical?
Even if I never in my life felt any love and altruism I would still want to believe that both things do exist.
I would recommend to all of you to read the book "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm.


Why do you feel the need to be so abrasive?
What's so cynical?  I find it beautiful when someone understands themselves that well they can note their selfishness and be open to their imperfections.  And it's beautiful to find people that have the ability to commit an act that is altruistic - for they are so very rare - yet it give one hope in humanity.  What can be less cynical than that?
And I prefere Rumi.

the.dark.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 3:39:54 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Yes they exist.

It comes down to finding someone who matches yours.

choose well and this becomes a null and void issue.

This isn't rocket science.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 4:43:46 PM   
UniqueRaven


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From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		i think the easiest way i can explain is like this:

Do hard limits exist in TPE? Yes, they do.

Do slaves try to seek out Masters who have limits compatible with their own? Yes, they do.

Do all Masters respect the hard limits of their slaves? No, not all Masters do. And some of those slaves are happy and fulfilled - and some are not.

This is just the way the world is. Everything exists, on this planet, in one form or another. The best that any of us can do is to find the most compatible situations, and individuals, with which to exist - and then find fulfillment, and choose happiness.

SN, i know that you want to categorize and understand these concepts for your own use and purposes, but human beings, and the entire spectrum of human behaviors, cannot be categorized in the way that you would like them to be.

And like the.dark, i prefer Rumi as well:

The real beloved is that one who is unique,
who is your beginning and your end.
When you find that one,
you’ll no longer expect anything else:
that is both the manifest and the mystery.

~Rumi (emphasis mine)

There's your answer.

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 6/14/2010 4:48:36 PM >

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 5:01:30 PM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
So, if slave has any hard limits and if the Master agreed not to ever break them, can this relationship still be considered TPE?


No.


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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 7:15:38 PM   
LafayetteLady


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So after reading/skimming the insanely large number of posts by the OP, can I possibly be the only one who thinks he is writing his college thesis on BDSM and is asking these questions, posting "thoughts" in order to write his paper?

Because honestly, in my opinion, anyone who has that many concerns over what everyone ELSE is doing either has an ulterior motive or is unable to form their own thoughts.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 7:27:21 PM   
smilezz


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Status: offline 		I believe that everyone has _some form_ of a limit. I prefer the: "Just because you CAN do something, does not mean you SHOULD"

Happy Monday!

-smilezz-

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 7:49:54 PM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		Calla, I agree that it's important for everyone to get their needs met, and preferably most of their "wants" as well. I personally find a transactional approach rather off-putting, though. When I was looking last year, I had a few men approach me, wanting to do housework. Most of them wanted to be naked or cross-dressed, and demanded play sessions in exchange. It left me completely cold, and I turned them down as a matter of course. One man contacted me politely, and in the second or third e-mail, said that he'd love to do housework for me, because he wanted to be helpful and useful to me. He was interested in playing as well, but didn't demand a tit-for-tat (or should I say "tits for that?"). I found a partner right around that time, and I most likely wouldn't have become involved with him with the time and such that he had to offer, but I didn't feel that he was objectifying me or being rude. I had strongly considered meeting up for coffee and at least discussing to see if we could find a workable common ground.

Jeff (leadership), I'm in the "engineers" camp as well. I have difficulty thinking of it as "no limits," and think of it as having compatible limits and being wise and careful in choosing a partner! I've run into a lot of people who go "Ooh, I've got to add nettles/spiders/whatever to my limits list!" every time they run into something they don't like but hadn't thought of before. When my former Master and I were dating and he asked about limits, I said that I didn't want any deliberate permanent harm done to me without discussing and agreeing to it. I specifically wanted someone who was reasonable and had common sense, and who I could say "yes!" to even for the tough things, knowing he would be supportive and encouraging.

DesFIP, I agree that it would be difficult for me to submit to someone if I were constantly feeling the need to say no to him, to resist him, even defy him. That just sets up a mindset that is counterproductive to power exchange, for me.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 11:18:34 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
So, if slave has any hard limits and if the Master agreed not to ever break them, can this relationship still be considered TPE?


I'm not a fan of the "TPE" idea, neither in the "total" nor in the "exchange" portion of the abbreviation.

Therefore, I'll rework the question slightly: if the slave has any hard limits and if the Master agreed not to ever break them, can this relationship still be considered M/s?

Simply, yes. A slave may have some degree of trouble imbibing molten rock or skinning herself from head to toe. This has no bearing at all on her ability to grovel, fetch, cook, clean, fuck, suck and breed for her Keeper.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 11:32:14 PM   
Nineveh


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Status: offline 		It is easy to find something worse than scat.  That's death.  Is it really TPE if the slave is not willing to allow the Dominant to end his or her life?  Not by many definitions of the word Total.  However I think you are nitpicking and should be more concerned with the parameters of particular relationships.  A relationship feels like TPE when the limits of the Dominant and the slave match up exactly.  The fact that the Dominant may wish to do some things that he or she does not actually do, out of respect for the submissive, may change the feeling of the relationship and whether it still feels total to the two of them is individual to those two people.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/14/2010 11:48:01 PM   
dreamerdreaming


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Status: offline 		*scurries away to list sheep herding as a hard limit*

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 12:23:46 AM   
myotherself


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Status: offline 		After almost a decade doing wiitwd and through several relationships, this idea of 'hard limits' is something I've thought about a lot, and discussed with a lot of people.

The conclusion that I've come to that works for me is that before entering into the relationship, I tell him things I cannot do. Not stuff I won't do - stuff that would harm me physically and/or psychologically if he were to insist it happened. This is an extremely short list and one that the person I'm talking with happily agrees with, because they don't particularly ring his bell either.

Anything else is fair game! There are things he wants to try, and I'm open to new experiences. We're both grown-up people with strong affection for each other, so we will discuss the new stuff after it happens to see if it happens again. But ultimately, unless this activity is harmful to either one of us in a bad way, then whether it happens again is up to him.

If you care about your partner, then you will take their opinions, needs and desires into account. Doesn't mean they'll get their own way, but it does mean that you care enough to listen.

As so many of the wise (and experienced!) posters have said, it all boils down to 'relationship'. Everyone's version of TPE, D/s, M/s, whatever, is different. YOU define what works for YOU by experiencing it.



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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 8:37:56 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
True, but I still disagree. This fails the common sense test. When I watch some show on TV and someone risks their life to save another, I do not say, "Oh yeah, big deal. He was just being selfish because he didn't want to sleep with himself at night if he'd done nothing". I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.


It isn't "selfishness" -- it is just a recognition that, in any instance in which we make a certain choice, we do so using criteria that are self-fulfilling. What brings us fulfillment/satisfaction differs from person to person, but anyone with a background in psychology or counseling (mine is in ministerial counseling) learns that the reason people make choices is because they are getting something out of that choice -- it may not seem like there is any valuable return to someone outside the equation, but to the individual making the choice, the reason Choice A is made rather than Choice B is because Choice A provides a "better" return from the perspective of the person making the choice.

As an expansion based on your example, an individual who is NOT a professional firefighter/police officer risks hir life to, say, enter a burning building and rescue someone makes a decision to do that, rather than stand and watch the proceedings. In the end, the decision may boil down to "I couldn't feel right about myself if I let that person die!" -- while it appears heroic and altruistic ("look, that person risked hir life to rescue that other person!!!"), in reality the equation is more about the rescuer's sense of self-worth ("I don't think I could live with myself/I would hate myself if I didn't go in and get that person, so the risk to my life is less horrible for me than living for the rest of my life hating myself.")

Professional risk-takers often have other "rewards" from their behavior, including (but not limited to) the adrenalin high, the desire for accolades (hero-worship), or the desire to pit themselves against the greatest dangers they can perceive of as a measure of their self-perceived courage/skill. In either case, though, the reason the choice is made is not completely self-less, and, to be honest, as a counselor, when we encounter those who -do- act with complete dismissal of their own well-being, those individuals are considered to be less than mentally fit.

In the context we're using it for this situation, this means that, to a greater or lesser extent, though it sounds selfish, one of the motivators for protecting one's servant is the self-serving realization that this person is valuable to the Keeper, and failure to care for one's servant means that one will not have those services available. It sounds harsh to some people to express it so blatantly, but especially in non-romantic relationships (including traditional work relationships), this is actually the most common reason for a manager to attend to the needs of a subordinate.

Romantic relationships like yours and Carols have additional criteria by which situations are managed and decisions are made, but even those, over time, boil down to what will best serve the survival and well-being of the individuals involved in their own minds.



Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/15/2010 8:38:18 AM >

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 9:48:32 AM   
SocratesNot


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quote:


It isn't "selfishness" -- it is just a recognition that, in any instance in which we make a certain choice, we do so using criteria that are self-fulfilling. What brings us fulfillment/satisfaction differs from person to person, but anyone with a background in psychology or counseling (mine is in ministerial counseling) learns that the reason people make choices is because they are getting something out of that choice -- it may not seem like there is any valuable return to someone outside the equation, but to the individual making the choice, the reason Choice A is made rather than Choice B is because Choice A provides a "better" return from the perspective of the person making the choice.

As an expansion based on your example, an individual who is NOT a professional firefighter/police officer risks hir life to, say, enter a burning building and rescue someone makes a decision to do that, rather than stand and watch the proceedings. In the end, the decision may boil down to "I couldn't feel right about myself if I let that person die!" -- while it appears heroic and altruistic ("look, that person risked hir life to rescue that other person!!!"), in reality the equation is more about the rescuer's sense of self-worth ("I don't think I could live with myself/I would hate myself if I didn't go in and get that person, so the risk to my life is less horrible for me than living for the rest of my life hating myself.")

Professional risk-takers often have other "rewards" from their behavior, including (but not limited to) the adrenalin high, the desire for accolades (hero-worship), or the desire to pit themselves against the greatest dangers they can perceive of as a measure of their self-perceived courage/skill. In either case, though, the reason the choice is made is not completely self-less, and, to be honest, as a counselor, when we encounter those who -do- act with complete dismissal of their own well-being, those individuals are considered to be less than mentally fit.


I think that your entire reasoning is flawed because you assume that before every action that someone performs there is the process of calculation of pros and contras for that action. This is simply not true. People do not always calculate. Some heroic deeds are really heroic, because they are done instinctively and they are based on emotions, not on calculation. It is very important to know that the thing called empathy does exist. People can feel other people's emotions. Emotions can be contagious. And also emotions are not based on mathematics and calculations. If we based every decision on cold calculated reasoning, civilization would have already been destroyed.

So, indeed there are selfless acts and in many situations there is simply not enough time to do thinking like "Well, if I not risk my life saving this kid I will feel bad about self ever after". Such thought does not even appears in someone's mind in situations of real urgency. Even trying to articulate such thought would result in loss of few very precious seconds that can determine the outcome of the emergency.

Real altruistic acts are based on feelings of love toward other people or towards humanity in  general, and also they are based on very strong feelings of empathy.

Calculations like "I will do it in order to feel good about myself later" really do not exist in some purely selfless acts.

How would you describe someone who is usually cruel, evil, has no conscience whatsoever and has done numerous horrible things without regard to anyone - who suddenly empathizes with a little helpless kid and tries to rescue him. He will probably continue to feel bad about himself because of his numerous previous deeds and helping this kid will not change his situation significantly. Or, what is even more probable - he doesn't care at all how he feels about himself- he has no conscience at all, but still in one moment he empathized with the kid and helped him. This is pure and absolute altruism and this does exist.


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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 10:10:22 AM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		In order to prevent the hijack I started another thread about altruism:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3259151/tm.htm


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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 10:15:04 AM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		No no, I TOTALLY get that Calla. I completely with and understand the dynamic you are portraying. At the mechanical level, even the guy who runs into the burning building to save a child HAD to have some internal self-motivation. I mean seriously, nobody else's brain could cause his leg muscles to move so whatever it was that caused that action, it was definitely self-motivated. That is a given.

What I do not agree with is the definition of word "altruism" precludes any and all self-motivation in this context. In fact, in order to have any use at all (and let's face it, the human species has gotten a lot of mileage out of that concept over time), it pretty much MUST mean something other than what your implying.

Let me take one of my old half-jokes and use it for example. I like to say, "The problem with being good is that you have to be good." What I mean by that is that frequently the criteria of "goodness" is really annoying. Frequently it involves NOT getting what you wanted and having to do something hard/annoying/selfless/whatever. So using your thought pattern, that means that being good is not really anything other than self-motivated greed attached to a particular value system. Some people value money so they rob banks. I value "goodness" so I help people. It's all the same right? Not only is that ridiculous on the face of it, but the problem is that my internal motivation doesn't cancel out the external objective truth. For whatever reasons, I'm still being good.

The same can be said of altruism. I don't believe when we speak of someone acting altruistically we are implying that they have no internal motivation. Of COURSE they do. But that doesn't change the objective reality that their act(s) benefited other people more than they benefited the individual doing the act.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 10:19:15 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
How would you describe someone who is usually cruel, evil, has no conscience whatsoever and has done numerous horrible things without regard to anyone - who suddenly empathizes with a little helpless kid and tries to rescue him. He will probably continue to feel bad about himself because of his numerous previous deeds and helping this kid will not change his situation significantly. Or, what is even more probable - he doesn't care at all how he feels about himself- he has no conscience at all, but still in one moment he empathized with the kid and helped him. This is pure and absolute altruism and this does exist.


I've always enjoyed the dichotomy of a man in black riding a white horse from time to time; it plays with absolute assumptions about Devils and Angels and Heaven and Hell.

I do take issue at times with assertions about altruism, particularly when framed as pure and absolute. I'm a believer in the tendency for self-interest or egotism to worm its way somehow into the motives for a noble deed; that there is a pleasure reward in it somewhere for the hero. With that said, could you provide a convincing example of "pure" altruism? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I do think it's more elusive than many may care to realize upon a passing glance.

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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 10:33:45 AM   
Ishtarr


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Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_altruism

I've always found Robert Axelrod's theories around altruism to be very interesting.
He basically suggest that altruism, and heroism, especially in males is like a peacock's tail.

It basically serves no logical biological function and is actually even counter-productive in evolutionary terms.
It inhibits the chances of individual survival, and the only logical reason to keep it around is for sexual selection and to show off health to the opposite sex.

A peacock's tail basically screams: I'm such a healthy strong specimen that I can endanger my chances to survive by caring a useless, unpractical tail this size around and still make it through life successful
Robert's suggest that we are selflessly altruistic and heroic for the same reason.
Running into a burning building to save a child basically screams: I'm such a healthy and strong specimen that I can risk endangering my life like that because I'm confident that I'll make it anyways, and thus could be seen as a sexual selection strategy meant to impress the opposite sex, which would also explain why this type of behavior is more pronounced in males than in females.




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RE: Do hard limits exist in TPE ? - 6/15/2010 11:45:48 AM   
dwedeking


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Status: offline 		My experience coming out of a very long term TPE relationship is that two (or more) people need to mesh for the most part. Meaning that their values, desires, etc both sexual and in other parts of life need to be similiar (not the same as that's impossible). While in a "lifestyle" relationship we at surface value seem to be complete opposites, in reality we compliment each others desires. For example (in general terms) a sub wants to be led, and a dom wants to lead. While these are opposites they actually get both people to the end result that they both desire.

I think everyone focuses too much on specific acts as a definition of their relationship. In my experience it's not the fact that I controlled a sub's physical presence, and more specifically if it was chain, rough rope, or a silk tie that I controlled it with, but rather the emotional effects of having someone under my control/protection and the feeling they got being under that control/protection. So I wouldn't stress so much that she didn't like the abrasive feel of rough rope vs a silk tie as a definition of our relationship being TPE or not.

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