RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time Simply Reboots

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time Simply Reboots

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time Simply Reboots

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 7:16:07 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

Good points, Rich. And I would not dispute the uncosciousness of the collective esp. when watching the excitement

of a footie match from south africa while those damn horns penetrate the cerebral cortex and dull transmission across synapses. Zone-out time.

Aside from that snide remark I can attest to your observations, having come from a culture where ghosts are glimpsed briefly over the shoulder out of the corner of one eye or just fleetingly on the landing in the tenement stairwell above.

Still awaiting experimental confimation of the paranormal. Or is that asking too much? I mean, does it spoil the party?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 61

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 7:42:25 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

So, the interesting speculation is that as the research into quantum physics and string theory advances, there is a chance that we may find that "consciousness" is not wholly a chemical brain reaction, but may be also based on information storage that extends outside the body into the wider quantum universe, in a holographic sense.

If so, then this could explain many of the more difficult to explain "psychic" experiences and other dimly understand aspects of human experience, especially in death, near death and religious and psychic experiences.

Interesting stuff above, Firm. But seems a big leap to infer a cosmic reality from a man-made technology. I hope you understand my skepticism is serious and not mocking.

And this below raises the issue of why Faith seeks verification from Science. A reversal of the past pattern, I would think, where Faith divorced itself from Science as "another way of thinking." A refreshing but dangerous turn for Faith imo.

quote:

Of course, this is just speculation, but what I find interesting is that some serious scholars are positing some of those possibilities, and that there may actually be scientific answers to "the meaning of life" and the existence of "god" and the "soul".

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 62

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 7:58:31 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I just have a hard time believing that it's all as simple as live, die, become fertilizer.

That's because we're all God's special creations.

Another example of mocking people who have religious feelings... that aside for a moment, and stay on topic from the article...

Did the article claim that there was a god? Did it claim there was life after death? Did it claim that there was supernatural forces at work that could explain the cosmos?

No, it did not. I suggest you reread the article. Here is the thing, I don't think the article is the gospel truth. I don't think that the author of it has evidence. I think it is an interesting way to look at time and space and the observer of it (meaning the conscious being). We do not understand many things about how time works, how the universe works, how parallel universes work. We do not understand these things, but we are developing ways to understand them...

Now you post on this thread making it about a belief in God, when it clearly isn't? Why? Why do you have to turn every speculation about the nature of reality and the human consciousness into an opportunity to bash on religious people? What innate insecurity within you causes you to do that?

Why do some Atheists need to crap all over everything because they don't like that line of thinking? I say this as an agnostic, someone who does not know what happens when I die, someone who doesn't have answers....someone who searches for answers.

My son, who trends toward Atheism, made a particularly relevant statement about Atheists, and the reason why he could not become one... he said...

"You know mom, Atheists are so much like religious people, they need answers as to what happens when they die, just like religious people do.... Certainty that when we die we cease to exist is better than uncertainty that they are living this life wrong. To deal with that insecurity of not knowing they make up their own answer to explain everything"

My son is brilliant.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 63

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 8:14:06 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Julia, you have it backwards. It's not the atheists who made this article about belief in God. It was the religious folks. Why are you not as equally indignant at people like Firm who will use this junk science to try and validate their religious beliefs, yet you get angry at the atheists for simply pointing out that it is indeed junk science, a position you have half-heartedly admitted yourself?

Is that how you plan to approach your doctoral thesis - apply junk science to defend your belief that science really can validate faith?

ETA: btw, your son is dead wrong.

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/16/2010 8:17:00 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 64

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 8:22:23 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Firm who will use this junk science to try and validate their religious beliefs, yet you get angry at the atheists for simply pointing out that it is indeed junk science, a position you have half-heartedly admitted yourself?

The article is not scientific

Quantum theory is. Firm talked about quantum theory. He posted links to concepts that quantum theory lays out. He used those concepts to posit that perhaps this could explain experiences that people have instead of dismissing them as superstitious fearful dolts who cling to a belief in a god to deal with the event of death.

I find it amusing that you need to respond to the above post, why? Because I challenged the Atheists on their inability to deal with uncertainty? I quoted my son because it kinda turns the entire Atheist position towards those of faith on its head, it is they who can't stand having no answers, it is they who can't stand uncertainty of what happens when we die...

BTW, Firm did not ever state that this article supported a belief in god, he posted about god after people like darwinslittlehelper started bashing on it....he actually said this

j

quote:

ulia,

You know that we don't normally "get along" all that well, but I thank you for posting this, and attempting to bring up a deeper discussion about such things.

I believe that physics - with string theory, quanta and some of the things we are learning about the possibilities of the universe - may have deeper implications than many want to admit, or even consider. I think that the theory about "the mind" being a holographic system, and perhaps being based in the quantum state and quantum foam of the universe has some exciting possibilities, for what it says that death may or may not be.

Unfortunately, as you can see from all the attempts at derailment and belittlement, most any thread that requires much reflection isn't something that often gets such, here, by the ankle biters.

Firm

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 65

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 8:32:15 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

I am a member of a national Free Thinkers organization and am active in my local chapter. I attend events, conferences, read the published papers, and participate in the online communities. I don't know a single atheist who is unsure about what happens when we die and I certainly don't know any who just make things up to deal with it. Atheists believe that when we die there is nothing else - no more life, no more consciousness, no more self. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Religion seeks to "make things up" in order to deal with these insecurities, not atheists. Sorry if you disagree.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 66

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 8:40:46 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I am a member of a national Free Thinkers organization and am active in my local chapter.

Yes, a world in which we are only free to think like you... or be ridiculed...

quote:

I don't know a single atheist who is unsure about what happens when we die and I certainly don't know any who just make things up to deal with it. Atheists believe that when we die there is nothing else - no more life, no more consciousness, no more self. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Thanks for reiterating what my almost Atheist son thinks about Atheism, you have no evidence to support that when we die there is nothing else. None! It is as silly to say that you know what happens after the fact with no evidence of that knowing as it is for people to say there is a god with having no evidence. You have your answer, and people like Dawkins want to make sure we do not seek other answers, because you BELIEVE you have the one true answer....

quote:

Religion seeks to "make things up" in order to deal with these insecurities, not atheists. Sorry if you disagree.

Im not sorry to disagree, I welcome it. What I do not welcome is condescension, arrogance, and absolute certainty of a position that is uncertain. What I also do not welcome is any sort of belief system that assumes that there is no further knowledge to be gained on any topic, especially the biggest one of all, does the human consciousness mean more than some random electrical noise...

For crying out loud, we are still in the Dark Ages of understanding physics, electricity, even fucking gravity...lol

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 67

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 8:59:15 AM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I just have a hard time believing that it's all as simple as live, die, become fertilizer.

That's because we're all God's special creations.

Another example of mocking people who have religious feelings... that aside for a moment, and stay on topic from the article...

The really funny part of this is RuleMyStrife's mistaken assumption that my feelings and comments were coming from a place of "belief in a God". My response and feelings on this topic are actually more of a science-based contemplation, perhaps fueled by a certain level of spiritualism, but certianly not one of religion.

And I don't see anyone here trying to convert anyone else, or anyone here saying "here's the way it is. I'm right and you're wrong". Unless I missed something, this topic wasn't posed as a debate on whether or not there's a God. To me, it all came off as an exploration, food for thought, a sharing and discussing of ideas.

Once again, something that could have been a great topic, had the hecklers not come around to take a shit all over it with uncalled for mockery.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 68

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:01:07 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Scientists use scientific methods and principles all the time to try and understand life and death. It was scientists who debunked the religious near death experiences about 15 yrs ago, remember? But I guess that just makes them arrogant.

The point is, Julia, the answers to what happens after death will only come from the realms of science. Faith alone will never provide answers, only comfort. The problem with the religious like Firm, is that all scientific inquiry begins with the axiom that God indeed exists and that there is life after death as stated in the Bible. They only seek validation of their axioms from science. They are not interested in any science that debunks the axiom. This is why most scientists are not religious. You can't bring that kind of baggage to the scientific method and end up with good science. If scientists could prove that there was indeed an afterlife, they would do it in a minute and win the Nobel prize. There is no incentive for the religious to accept any science that proves the contrary. You see the difference?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 69

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:26:37 AM

cuckoldmepls

Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline

Actually, I had a perfect theory on this until they decided the universe was continually expanding while speeding up, not expanding but slowing down, then eventually contracting.

Since everything is energy, and energy is dissipated at a constant rate then that would mean that the universe has expanded and contracted regenerating itself exactly the same an infinite number of times. We are indeed caught in the groundhog day scenario. I suspect that de ja vu is simply a subconscious memory of the event that we have already experienced an infinite number of times. Even our thoughts and decisions would be exactly the same since they are all energy.

Unfortunately, the so called experts who probably make this stuff up, destroyed my theory.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 70

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:36:18 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

Poor baby.
How do you think Fred Hoyle feels?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to cuckoldmepls)

Post #: 71

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:45:22 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

It was scientists who debunked the religious near death experiences about 15 yrs ago, remember? But I guess that just makes them arrogant.

I did not think they debunked it, just because they showed the physical processes that occur does not negate the experience...

T

quote:

he point is, Julia, the answers to what happens after death will only come from the realms of science. Faith alone will never provide answers, only comfort.

No, that was not your point. Your point was that you BELIEVE there is no life after death and that everyone who believes other than you is WRONG. That was your point.

And BTW, I am hard on all one true wayers... from Christians to Muslims to Jews to any other belief. I have respect for those who allow others to believe what they will and leave them alone to express their religion as they would like. Posting on a thread like this that you have the one true way and standing up for those who are arrogantly insisting that they do too, well it is not in the spirit of the thread... which is to question.. since you have the answers, well I suppose you should make a thread about that. i could give a rat's ass about that thread, any more then I care about a Christian one...

quote:

he problem with the religious like Firm, is that all scientific inquiry begins with the axiom that God indeed exists and that there is life after death as stated in the Bible.

For goodness sake, why is this a problem for you? I mean seriously, why do you care what he thinks or believes or how he wants to go about developing his questions about life, the universe, and everything in it? I fail to understand what your point is at all... It is not like he came on this thread and claimed to have all the answers, Atheists did.

quote:

They only seek validation of their axioms from science. They are not interested in any science that debunks the axiom. This is why most scientists are not religious. You can't bring that kind of baggage to the scientific method and end up with good science.

Please, feel free to start a scientific method thread. I do not care about the scientific method. It is only one cultural construct for understanding the world....

And as far as scientists being religious... please show me where they are mostly Atheists... (I know that most of them are NOT)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 72

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:45:26 AM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

I don't know a single atheist who is unsure about what happens when we die.

Well, you do now. Pleased to meet you. I'm Marie.

quote:

Atheists believe that when we die there is nothing else - no more life, no more consciousness, no more self.

Really? Last I knew an athiest was someone who doesn't believe that a God exists. Period. Dot. There is no testament of beliefs for being an athiest. It's not a religion.

An athiest can certainly believe in something after life, without believing in a God.

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 73

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 9:53:44 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

The philosophical concept about your death filling eternity is very popular with atheists, I've noticed.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to marie2)

Post #: 74

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 11:10:53 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

It was scientists who debunked the religious near death experiences about 15 yrs ago, remember? But I guess that just makes them arrogant.

I did not think they debunked it, just because they showed the physical processes that occur does not negate the experience...

No, the experiments negated that the experience itself was divine and therefore proof of an afterlife, which the "Christian scientists" sought to validate.

quote:

No, that was not your point. Your point was that you BELIEVE there is no life after death and that everyone who believes other than you is WRONG. That was your point.

And BTW, I am hard on all one true wayers... from Christians to Muslims to Jews to any other belief. I have respect for those who allow others to believe what they will and leave them alone to express their religion as they would like. Posting on a thread like this that you have the one true way and standing up for those who are arrogantly insisting that they do too, well it is not in the spirit of the thread... which is to question.. since you have the answers, well I suppose you should make a thread about that. i could give a rat's ass about that thread, any more then I care about a Christian one...

Don't misrepresent my views. What you are calling "one true wayer," which I am not, I call meritocracy. I don't believe that all views are equally valid.

quote:

quote:

he problem with the religious like Firm, is that all scientific inquiry begins with the axiom that God indeed exists and that there is life after death as stated in the Bible.

For goodness sake, why is this a problem for you? I mean seriously, why do you care what he thinks or believes or how he wants to go about developing his questions about life, the universe, and everything in it? I fail to understand what your point is at all... It is not like he came on this thread and claimed to have all the answers, Atheists did.

Atheists never claimed to have all the answers. We just claim to not believe in things for which there is no evidence. Why is that so difficult for you? He came to this thead using your article as confirmation bias of his faith. If you are being intellectually honest, you should have just as much problem with that as with the people who thought your article was junk. I responded to you and not him becaue I don't care what he thinks, but I do care that you, in your response to him, misrepresented the views of atheists.

quote:

And as far as scientists being religious... please show me where they are mostly Atheists... (I know that most of them are NOT)

You don't know this. The latest NAS poll (National Academy of Sciences) showed that 94% of scientists are Atheist or Agnostic. This link was presented in the "Critical Thinking and religion" thread from back in March. If you google "scientists" and "atheism" you will find evidence of dozens of polls confirming this, but you won't find one poll or any data anywhere that shows the opposite. Even the data as interpreted by religious organizations show that 60% of scientists are non-believers. They have managed to fudge the 40% because they dick around with terms "religious" vs "spiritual."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 75

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 11:15:40 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

How about the creationist fuckwits? I doubt most of the alleged "scientists" they have promoting that one are atheists or agnostics. Are they all of the other 6%, or do they just not count as proper scientists who get stuff reviewed by peers instead of publishing it in through a press run by some tit who thinks every species on Earth lived within walking distance of the Middle East?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 76

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 11:21:36 AM

brainiacsub

Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

Atheists believe that when we die there is nothing else - no more life, no more consciousness, no more self.

Really? Last I knew an athiest was someone who doesn't believe that a God exists. Period. Dot. There is no testament of beliefs for being an athiest. It's not a religion.

An athiest can certainly believe in something after life, without believing in a God.

You are right. I shouldn't have been so careless with words. Not all atheists are scientists and so there is a different standard of proof and belief for those not scientifically inclined. I suppose an atheist could believe their life force became chicken soup after death. It wouldn't make them less of an atheist to hold such a belief.

And just for added clarification and to set the record straight - atheists do not claim to know what happens after death. They just don't believe in the Biblical or other religious versions. Scientists don't believe in any theory or hypothesis of what happens after death unless it can be tested and verified. They don't accept things on faith.

(in reply to marie2)

Post #: 77

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 11:29:27 AM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

Atheists believe that when we die there is nothing else - no more life, no more consciousness, no more self.

Really? Last I knew an athiest was someone who doesn't believe that a God exists. Period. Dot. There is no testament of beliefs for being an athiest. It's not a religion.

An athiest can certainly believe in something after life, without believing in a God.

You are right. I shouldn't have been so careless with words. Not all atheists are scientists and so there is a different standard of proof and belief for those not scientifically inclined. I suppose an atheist could believe their life force became chicken soup after death. It wouldn't make them less of an atheist to hold such a belief.

And just for added clarification and to set the record straight - . Scientists don't believe in any theory or hypothesis of atheists do not claim to know what happens after death. They just don't believe in the Biblical or other religious versions what happens after death unless it can be tested and verified. They don't accept things on faith.

Agreed.

But now I may never be able to eat chicken soup again.

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 78

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 11:29:42 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

Apart from the creationist ones, who appear to spend all their time doing nothing fucking else...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 79

RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time S... - 6/16/2010 12:07:56 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

No, the experiments negated that the experience itself was divine and therefore proof of an afterlife, which the "Christian scientists" sought to validate.

Hmmmm.. again, what do Christian Scientists have to do with the FACT that people have near death experiences and that science understands these experiences as processual, and those who experience this understand it a different way. It maybe that the process itself is just the mechanism by which people bridge the after death journey... which you haven't died, so you don't know what happens after that anymore than Christian Scientists do...

quote:

Don't misrepresent my views. What you are calling "one true wayer," which I am not, I call meritocracy. I don't believe that all views are equally valid.

You come on this thread, misrepresent what others have said (example: accused Firm of making this thread about god) and then get bent out of shape when I call you on using this thread which is not about god at all to push your anti-religion agenda because you don't think people should have these discussions without your "free thought"...gotcha

quote:

Atheists never claimed to have all the answers. We just claim to not believe in things for which there is no evidence. Why is that so difficult for you? He came to this thead using your article as confirmation bias of his faith. If you are being intellectually honest, you should have just as much problem with that as with the people who thought your article was junk. I responded to you and not him becaue I don't care what he thinks, but I do care that you, in your response to him, misrepresented the views of atheists.

BULLSHIT... read through the thread... all the snarky potshots, all the assumptions about the article by people who obviously did not read it... he did not mention god first, Atheists on this thread did, why? Because many of you are zealots....and again, this is not a scientific thread... HELLO? are you paying attention?

quote:

The latest NAS poll (National Academy of Sciences) showed that 94% of scientists are Atheist or Agnostic.

Haven't seen it, but I do know this.... there is a world of diff between an agnostic and you... believe me, I am one.

There is also a huge diff between nonreligious and Atheist... just in case ya didn't know...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to brainiacsub)

Post #: 80

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What Happens When You Die? Evidence Suggests Time Simply Reboots

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094