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ORIGINAL: MsAlisedeSade
(trimmed to address the answer)
To answer the question people view the men who pay as some sort of victim instead of adult who has made a decision on what they feel is right for them. Morality is a personal code of conduct. It is up to an individual to decide what is best for them and I don't think it should be forced upon you by others.

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ORIGINAL: PeanutTigerinBox
Why this different view is, I also want to remind that the same happens without the pro aspect...

if a woman sleeps with many men she is a slut, if a man does sleep with many women he is a great stud...

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ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I think most of the anger isn't actually toward pro-Dommes, but rather for "false advertising" and "bait and switch. Bondage.com insists that pros use a symbol to mark them, and I've never seen any negative posts about pros in the forums there (and there are several who participate, or at least used to). I have to agree with cloudboy that coming on here to advertise professional services would be very similar to an escort advertising on Match or E-Harmony. If a high percentage of the ads were actually for pros there, a lot of men would probably get angry, especially if they were not up-front about it, and only brought it up after a few weeks and several e-mails had gone by.

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I don't have any interest in slamming men who patronise pro-Dommes, but I have mentioned before that it is a warning sign when I consider one to be personally involved with. If he is currently seeing a pro-Domme, I'll assume he isn't actually interested in a relationship. If he saw one a couple of times years ago, no big deal. If all of his experience is with pro-Dommes, I'll be suspicious that he has no relationship skills or social skills, and is basically undateable. If he has had LTRs with vanilla women, I would ask questions about whether or not he asked her to participate with him, if he went to a pro while they were dating without her knowledge, and what his expectations are. I think that it is easy for someone who only sees Pros to get a very unrealistic, fantasy view of Dommes, expect them to be glamorous 24/7, not be interested in submission unless she's dressed up, and very likely bottom (sometimes in a very dominant masochistic way) rather than submit. The last one isn't automatically a dealbreaker, but I won't consider someone to be my submissive unless they are actually ceding authority.

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I generally don't say negative things about pro-Dommes, and have a good friend who was a pro-switch for a while. If a pro is lying or just not forthright in her profile or initial e-mail, I don't think well of her, and I think men have a right to be angry. When a man offered me money, I was very offended by his attempt to turn me into a pro, when I had made it clear in my profile that I was looking for a relationship (which he was disqualified for due to distance).

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A while back, a man stalked a pro-Domme he had been a client of, and verbally attacked her submissive who was screening her mail (on orders). I thought very poorly of him, and I agree that it is important for pros and clients to maintain boundaries. When I worked in customer service, I genuinely wanted to be helpful. I had some repeat clients who I got to know, and we had interesting conversations, rather than just discussing the merchandise for a few minutes. I did actually care about them, and I think it helped me get repeat business. However, I didn't feel nearly as strongly toward them as I did toward my friends or the guys I dated. They were more on the "friendly acquaintances" level.

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Pact what I find fascinating is the opposite occurs in real land- the pros get esteem and tentative respect while the clients get pity. When I tell people my partner still goes to parties and sees pros, I almost always get the weird looks and "But you guys are so happy, why would he want to go see someone else?"

I think it's really that the vast majority of hetero kinksters are in a very small box of what kink fantasy is to be encouraged and it's "male in charge, spank me, force me, tie me, then we go to work."

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
That's very, very sad.  Speaking of putting oneself in another man's shoes: older generations of men will have had the fantasy of D/s for much of their lives without having more than the slimmest of chances of making it reality.  Until the 1970s, the same was true even of gay men, at least in the UK.  How unbelievably miserable.

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ORIGINAL: allthatjazx
Many single guys go to see a professional so that they can actually taste what submission or pain feels like from a female hand. Many of these men have tried, often for years, to get a bit of play time. They have often invested huge man hours into trying to get noticed and often unsuccessfully. You only have to go to a Fem Domme club to see a huge overflow of wallflowers that turn up week after week, month after month in the hope of getting the smallest amount of attention from a fem Domme. Many will go home disappointed time and time again.

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The shy guys amongst these wall flowers don't really have a hope in hell. Should they continue until they are old ? What on earth is disrespectful in them fulfilling that fantasy? Not all guys are young and virile and built like gladiators. A lot of these male subs are elderly, obese, are extremely shy or just lack confidence because of the number of times they have been rejected.

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ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer


Life is what you make of it.  One of the coolest people I know in the scene is a ponyboy who keeps himself in top shape by marathon rowing, until recently on a serious competitive level.  He is over 70 years old and has had both knees replaced.  He goes to events and visits communities across the country, and he and his partner host local Munches.  Because he is so pleasant and friendly and personable he gets about as much play as he can handle from men and women alike.  For Christmas one year, I made him an anatomically correct Energizer Bunny plushie in bondage harness, because that's basically what he is.  Takes a licking and keeps on ticking....and ticking....and ticking.   I do naughty things to him every chance I get, and recommend him highly to other dominants, because he is just that fucking cool.

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There is always a chance.  You can sit in the corner and whine that you have no chance, or blame others for the fact that it takes real work and effort to make your dreams a reality.  Heck, why not just blame all women, or all pros, for the fact that nobody wants to date you who isn't doing it for money.  Or you can take your life in both hands and make something better of it.  Improve your social skills, your personal attractiveness, your wit, your personality, your physique.  That's what will get you the results you want.  Sitting and whining, being bitter and angry and blaming the world for not just giving you what you want when you want it, that's self-defeating.  Also, it's toddler behavior, and not the mark of an adult man or woman who takes responsibility for being the change they want to see in their lives.

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No idea what groups you go to, but my experience in the scene is radically different.  The gender mix in FAD (my local femdom group) tends to hover around 50-50 but has more frequently been female-heavy than male-heavy.  Anyone active in the scene who is friendly, polite, personable and generally cool to hang with ends up getting about all the play they can handle, and then some.  I've frequently had ladies ask to double and triple team with me on subs I put up on the cross, because there was a shortage of male subs at loose ends who looked fun to play with.

I have seen some creepy wallflower guys pass through who acted standoffish and scared, and while most of us ladies try to take a moment to be friendly and welcoming to all the new faces, sometimes you can't get past the fact that they don't seem to want to talk to you like a normal human being.  So we give up, and they drift away without ever getting any play.  There's not much we can really do about that, but it's not us.  It's them, and it is something they can fix if they try. 

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Sadly, if you can't talk to a woman like a normal human being, you're gonna have a hard time getting her to play with you.  It sucks maybe, but them's the breaks.  Consider public speaking classes or therapy.  Seriously.  A little friendliness and personality goes a long way if you want a chance to get to know somebody personally.  If you can't offer that much, I don't hold out a lot of hope for you.

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ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
And here lies the confusion. Talk to one Domme like she's a normal human being and she may wiell bite his ear off. Talk to the next one like a Mistress and she will moan that she wants to be treated like a normal human being! All these dominant personalities lording it under one roof.

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Pact what I find fascinating is the opposite occurs in real land- the pros get esteem and tentative respect while the clients get pity. When I tell people my partner still goes to parties and sees pros, I almost always get the weird looks and "But you guys are so happy, why would he want to go see someone else?"

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Socially speaking, the Johns rate lower than the working girls. I think your observation bears out.

I recently did some background checking on a Pro Domme that does "online training." Her clientele were encouraged to blog about their "training" and "assignments," and for the most part I felt mortified for them (that's as good as they can find...) and afraid, too, that I (but for the grace of God) could sink that low myself.

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One of the trainees was a CD and aspiring sissy, and had declared on his blog that he felt so connected to his Domme (whom he had never met) and that he felt she was the only one who truly "got" him. Well, the fact is, this Domme has declared in her own writing that she does not even like CDs, so his blog writing left me particularly disturbed. On top of this, the Domme herself is married, so no guy getting training with her has any hope of a meaningful connection.

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When I concluded this background research, I thought I'd probably chose the Priesthood or the Jesuits over sinking to bottom levels of BDSM.

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy
You are a good thread Mistress.

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It is pointless to get mad at things you cannot change. So, the pro-domme rants here are IMO a form of madness. I give you credit for trying to probe the madness, and I think it has a varied set of derivatives.

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The one thing that leaped out at me from this thread, tho, was LA's observation about who gets the pity (clients) and respect (pros) in the flesh and blood communities. LA is always good for those real world, how it actually is -- observations. Glad she came back to this MB.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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On the other hand, if a married man uses a pro to have his needs met and his wife has consented, I see nothing wrong with it, in fact, I think for many this is better for their primary relationship than if they got "involved" with someone else in a secondary relationship. I mean no offense to the great number of people here who DO have these secondary relationships and all the spouses are involved. That works great for them and that's fine as well. I just think it would be easier to simply have their submissive needs met outside the marriage without the ongoing demands of a Mistress.

I'm not offended at all, but I would like to address it.

I think you have to look at the situation from both viewpoints.  If someone is married and looking for play only, you might be right.  The best option might be to pay for that aspect alone.

However, as has been pointed out many times in this thread and others, this makes it a business transaction.  That person isn't especially fulfilling his submissive desires.  Rather, he is bottoming.  It is not especially D/s nor is it necessarily in service.  There isn't a power structured dynamic that some folks crave.  Going to a pro gets the bottoming wants met, but the actual submission?  Most likely not.

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I can see single men using reputable pros because they have the needs but aren't looking for a full time relationship of that type for whatever reason, or they are looking for the right relationship but in the meantime find it easier to have their needs met by a pro.

I tend to call them wants, but I agree with the concept.

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I guess my views on it all comes down to the honesty of the people involved. Dishonesty on either side puts either one on the same low level.

Very true and I'm glad that a person's honesty and ethics come into play in the conversation from both sides of it.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The subject of pro domination comes up around here a lot.  Every time it does, inevitably, there will be contributions on such threads about people's personal opinions of pro dommes.  A lot of people don't feel that BDSM is something that should be engaged in for financial purposes.  Fair enough.

So, why aren't the clients held up to the same kind of scrutiny?

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I'm pretty sure that we agree on that point as well, but that perhaps my wording wasn't clear. I don't pretend to understand how a family dynamic like yours keeps everyone happy. By family dynamic, I include in that "family" not simply you and your husband, but clip and his wife as well. One complete group. While I may not understand how others find happiness in that kind of situation, I have read more than enough from you and others to have no doubt that you all are happy with the situation, and I do applaud everyone involved for being able to find that happy place in what, at least initially had to be a difficult situation to develop.

As you say, the man (or theoretically, woman) who seeks a pro to have those needs (or wants if you prefer) satisfied with the knowledge of their partner, totally cool too. While the pro and even the client may see it as a "business arrangement," to many of their partners, even visiting that pro, with no sex, or even intimate touching would be seen as allowing them to engage in a type of "affair" comforting themselves with the concept that because it WAS a type of business arrangement, that primary relationship would less likely be compromised.

Now, that is not to say that is an accurate portrait of how the reality would play out, but more the view point of the non kinky spouse and how they may view the situation of agreeing to their (previously unkown to them) kinky partner seeking the services of a pro rather than working toward a situation such as yours.

I readily admit, I couldn't do it. But in situations such as yours, and all the other variations of alternative households/situations involving multiple members successfully, the one thing I do know is that while y'all may make it look easy to people "peeking" into your life, a great deal of work, love and acceptance is required by everyone involved for everyone to be able to be happy.

Now, I realize this might still be not clear, which is, most definately my fault (doctor recently changed various medications), because there were times where I wasn't sure I was understanding what I wrote myself!

In any case, I think the big difference is while you are looking at it from "both" viewpoints, I was addressing from that "third" viewpoint of the non kinky partner.

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to being honest with everyone, a point where not only you and I agree, but find ourselves in a rather large group of people thinking that way.

ETA:

To give you an idea of how those new meds are messing with my head...after posting I went to the little girl's room and discovered that I had left the water in the sink running from my last visit there, about 90 minutes ago!

I have to say this first.  I do hope the med switch will go easy on you.  Promise Me that you'll double check your stove after dinner has been cooked, just in case. 

Yes, there absolutely is a lot to consider, especially when it comes to that non kinky partner.  Someone may be getting that consent, but how does that person really feel about it?  Lots of territory there and many things to consider.  You did a great job at explaining, so don't think that you didn't make sense.  For some, it might be easier if they are struggling with the ideas of sexual or actual emotional bond.  Definitely things that folks have to consider, talk about, and try to get an idea on for themselves.  Kind of scary without a net. 

Please get some rest.  I appreciate you putting so much time and thought into your reply.