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RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/18/2010 8:31:36 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
LP ... excellent question ...

Like You, i have met some FABULOUS Ladies who earned their living as Pro Dommes ...

and ... although i never admit to this on the boards ... was in a relationship with one, years ago. i will tell You ... She was as fine a PERSON ... as i have ever met ... in real life.

If i may propose a thought ... the word Pro Domme ... has sooo many permeations and connotations

Perhaps ... so many here who ask for money ... AND HAVE NO SKILLS ... they get CONFUSED OR LUMPED TOGETHER ... with those who earn a honest living. (Or at least supplement).

PS: Just read the OP ... and skipped the 7 or 8 pages ... if this has been said before ... i apologize ...

I trimmed down a little. Just a space thing.

Don't apologize for things that have been said before. On a thread like this, it's good to try to get a feel for how a number of folks think.

I'm more than with you in the part I highlighted in red. I do think a professional anything should have skill. I don't care if it's your hairdresser or your lawyer. (Well, I'm not sure if I care about the lawyers. LOL.) I do think that a person's skill set when discussing the topic ways heavily on My opinion of whether I really consider them professional or not.

Everybody has to decide for themselves how they feel about the issue. I just want folks to take a look at if they are looking at both participants in the same way.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)

Post #: 121

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/18/2010 9:16:47 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

So, why aren't the clients held up to the same kind of scrutiny? Why aren't the same kind of slurs thrown about for those paying for the session as those who are receiving payment?

~FR~

For the same reasons prostitutes were arrested and not their johns. When men *do bad things*, most cannot assume responsibility and need to blame a woman for being the temptress.

- LA

i nibbled at the edges of the plate ...

LA ... just hit it out of the park.

... pure and simple.

Except for the fact that in many areas, especially the major cities in the USA, johns ARE arrested with their clients and ARE charged with a crime.

Did you notice, I wrote *were*?

I honestly think that courting a vanilla prostitute is seen as *less evil* than seeing a Dominatrix in the eyes of most prudish societies.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 122

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/18/2010 9:50:07 PM

LafayetteLady

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From: Northern New Jersey
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It's been a couple of decades since they started arresting them in the States. On both sides, it is a petty crime and unless there is a Heidi Fleiss type of bust or the Mayflower Madam or a small town, you aren't going to read about it in the paper.

There are some areas though, where not only do the men suffer arrest, but there is a group that will post their picture around town stating the guy was arresting for going to a prostitute. They don't on those occassions mention the name of the prostitute, so in that way, the man is suffering more humiliation than the woman.

While I can't speak for everywhere, in a place like NYC, people aren't really looking at either as horribly evil. Admittedly though, the majority of people don't understand either. But they don't really understand the need to visit a prostitute either.

What I have seen is that people view both of them as part of the sex trade. Typically the "basic" prostitute is seen as having been somehow coerced into selling her body, whether it be due to drugs, needing the money, whatever. On the other hand the professional Dominatrix is seen more as a woman who doesn't particularly like men and enjoys punishing them. I think that there are far more prostitutes and dominatrices in many small towns than most people realize. They tend to think of those things being "city activities" and would be shocked to find out how popular it is right under their noses.

What it all comes down to is that most people fear what they don't understand, and the people with whom I have ever had discussions of this with either looked down on all parties involved or they just don't really care.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 123

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/18/2010 10:13:23 PM

LadyAngelika

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Ok. You keep living in your pretend world where women aren't vilified as succubus sex trade workers who lure men and the rest of us will live in the real world and men are just seen as oh... boys will be boys! How's that?

FYI - We haven't come that far yet, baby!

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 6/18/2010 10:18:44 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Post #: 124

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/19/2010 12:14:15 AM

whipmaker7

Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok. You keep living in your pretend world where women aren't vilified as succubus sex trade workers who lure men and the rest of us will live in the real world and men are just seen as oh... boys will be boys! How's that?

FYI - We haven't come that far yet, baby!

- LA

LOL, agreed!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 125

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 9:44:36 AM

MarcEsadrian

Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Then again, I tend to be old fashioned. I know if I really want something, it's worth the effort. When it comes easily, I don't always place the same value in it.

In this age of instant gratification I believe the above is a dying principle. The speed and easiness of things has increased to a degree that the superego is often poisoned with knee-jerk impulse and the patience of nat. Taking the time to launch one good arrow instead of several means you have to focus on your technique and target with some self discipline. The digital culture, for all its wonder, has stripped us of that organic process somewhat. In all fairness, that seems a problem from both sides of the equation.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 126

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:04:33 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Did you notice, I wrote *were*?

I honestly think that courting a vanilla prostitute is seen as *less evil* than seeing a Dominatrix in the eyes of most prudish societies.

- LA

I would be very interested in why you think this is true. Oddly enough, I would be of the opposite opinion, since it is absolutely sex (physical sex) that is bought and sold in the case of prostitution. Might I ask what your theory is on this?

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 127

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:18:34 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
In this age of instant gratification I believe the above is a dying principle. The speed and easiness of things has increased to a degree that the superego is often poisoned with knee-jerk impulse and the patience of nat. Taking the time to launch one good arrow instead of several means you have to focus on your technique and target with some self discipline. The digital culture, for all its wonder, has stripped us of that organic process somewhat. In all fairness, that seems a problem from both sides of the equation.

While not specifically addressing the subject to focus on the area of conducting business, this came up last night during discussions after the munch. That the internet really has made such a change in the way some folks do approach BDSM. Some folks really don't have to muster up the courage to pursue what they want, because they never really have to take a chance. It's now an easier, safer way, rather than having to extend yourself to reach out for the brass ring.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

Post #: 128

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:23:06 AM

domiguy

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Joined: 5/2/2006
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I volunteered that I would stay out of this mess and I will to a degree.

I know that after the Crags List killer struck that there was a pretty good outcry to eliminate the escorts off of Craigs List. I guess since killers and Johns don't advertise that this was the knee jerk response.

I know that people have stated that Pros are not prostitutes....I guess it all depends on what acts they will do for the dollars they receive that would make that statement true or false.

What about CM's role? Doe it possibly promote an illegal activity? In a profile for an escort they don't discuss sexual acts as as I believe that would definitely cross over the line into prostitution.

But at CM we have a list of interests....Is it because they are interests and not acts that allows them to stand?

I am a Pro Domme and I live for straps, dildos, queening, water sports and flea markets. Is this not close to the edge?

I have one hard limit....It is archeology. My aunt was killed during the excavation of sue.

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Post #: 129

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:31:57 AM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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Yeah, I heard Sue had a pretty big hole.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 130

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:47:34 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Domi, what about CM's role is a good question, especially when looking at it from a legal standpoint.

I'm not a lawyer, of course, but I am very well aware that we live in a litigious society. It isn't just the criminal aspect that I'm betting Craig's List was worried about. I'm thinking that dear, ole Craig got a bit scared at the thought of being dragged into civil court for 'facilitating opportunity' by a loving family member. Oddly enough, the same stance wasn't taken by Alt after the guy killed how many women in Ohio?

CM has taken the smarter route. While it does have a listing for professional services, those services can be of any kind. That can be anything from kinky photographers to computer hard drive clean up. It doesn't necessarily link them to illegal activities. It's an excellent loophole.

You may very well be on to something regarding "interests". Interests translates to thoughts, but not necessarily acts. Again, CM keeps it's hands clean because a thought isn't necessarily criminal.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 131

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 10:49:09 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Lets reward someone because they were lucky enough to be born with some holes some sort of a genetic predisposition towards attraction that people find to be palatable.

Do you find those who make money on their looks equally as unskilled and disreputable, lets say a Victoria's Secret model? They are selling themselves based upon their ability to attract. They are not using their brains, they are indeed selling their holes (or at the very least the desire of men to use those holes).... so if this topic is all about talentless attractive women selling their sex, why not the condemnation of Playboy models, etc?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 132

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:15:48 AM

TheLadyIsADomme

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/10/2009
From: Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You may very well be on to something regarding "interests". Interests translates to thoughts, but not necessarily acts. Again, CM keeps it's hands clean because a thought isn't necessarily criminal.
[/color]

Hello LadyPact:

Plus I think it also helps CM to keep their "hands clean", so to speak, because listing an array of interests in one's profile does not necessarily mean that they are advertising to perform those interests. In the professional realm, there would be some "contractual", if you will, arrangement, however loosely based, between the professional *whatever* and the customer, which takes CM out of the picture. They are merely the mechanism for the meeting, just like an ad in the yellow pages, I suppose.

And I think that the professional can use as an "out", if necessary, that although they listed those interests in their profile, those are not necessarily what they would do for a client.

Just my .02.

_____________________________

Warmly,
LD

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 133

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:17:15 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Everybody has to decide for themselves how they feel about the issue. I just want folks to take a look at if they are looking at both participants in the same way.

The pro thread that disappeared, I made the point you are basing this thread on, why aren't men that use pros judged?

Here is my theory... women who sell sex-related services are seen in some ways as preying on the weaknesses of men. The opposite side of this is the age old Western Civilization and Christian ideal of Madonna/Whore complex in which women are whores or Madonnas. This view does not appreciate women as multifaceted people, like men are historically treated. There is the entire Nature/Science thing... women represent the forces of irrational nature, man of logical science. It is embedded in our discourse of women being "hysterical" for example...

Gender discrimination is very powerful in this country, still. There are still women who pay for college selling their wares. There are women supporting wee ones stripping, and i do not see how we can judge these women based upon the FACT that men make 30 cents on the dollar more than women on average. Sexualizing women is big business...

Brings me to the domme being a pro.... That is a big threat in this society. A woman being in control over her sex, and the money she makes off of it, very threatening indeed. Those po' male subs with their dicks hanging out, well they are seen as victims of this feminine empowerment....

I have even read some complaining about the fact that because so few women want to dominate men that it makes pro dommes predatory and they are taking advantage of this shortfall... well, let's face it, if some were not willing to do it for pay, there would be even less men living out their fantasies....

Like I have said before, I worry about the safety of sex workers in a society that cares very little about what happens to them...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 134

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:35:42 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Lets reward someone because they were lucky enough to be born with some holes some sort of a genetic predisposition towards attraction that people find to be palatable.

Do you find those who make money on their looks equally as unskilled and disreputable, lets say a Victoria's Secret model? They are selling themselves based upon their ability to attract. They are not using their brains, they are indeed selling their holes (or at the very least the desire of men to use those holes).... so if this topic is all about talentless attractive women selling their sex, why not the condemnation of Playboy models, etc?

Very interesting point and well thought out.

Why not chastise athletes who manage to make ends meet by possessing some rather unique "god given" talents?

As we go up the curve and limit who can actually be allowed to participate greatly changes how that career is viewed. There is also a much different perception or actual admiration that comes by being able to participate within certain industries.

There is a huge difference between the Playboy model and the one doing work for Victoria Secret. One tends to be severely limited to future opportunities outside of the "sex industry." But apparently both have some fairly distraught people participating within their industries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34056906/ns/world_news-europe/
Top model found dead in Paris apartment

http://showhype.com/story/model_suicide/
MODEL SUICIDE — A stunning supermodel leaped from her swank downtown apartment to her death today in an apparent
suicide, officials said. Ruslana Korshunova, 20, whose face has graced the cover of French Elle and Russian Vogue, apparently jumped from her...

Check this site out....
http://www.whosaliveandwhosdead.com/l_pmom.asp
Dead Playboy Playmates of the Month

A quick count showed that approx 11 of the 40 playmates listed died due to murder, overdose or suicide...Sounds like a great profession, right?

I am sure that both have a higher suicide rate than that of other occupations.

The suicide rate for adult film actors is off the chart.

I know this sounds weird but it is about the "spirit." I know that sounds fucking crazy to come out here and suggest something as odd as that. But there is a tremendous validity in making the connection.

Certain occupations are simply damaging. Because they in no way nurture the inner self.

The reality is that few of us are in occupations that actually better our soul, for a lack of a better word. But we are not in occupations that actually cause us spiritual harm or deprivation.

Is this harm caused externally or internally is difficult to determine. Is it the public condemnation that is the root or is it something intrinsically internal in our nature that does not allow us to undertake such activities without causing some sort of damage?

But I would be willing to guess that both of these play a certain part.

We try to keep people from utilizing heroin because of the devastating consequences.....11 out of forty playmates have died fairly awful deaths...Maybe we should outlaw Playboy?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/20/2010 11:43:00 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 135

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:39:41 AM

domiguy

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centerfold 6/1978 Gail Stanton died 11/21/1996 from colon blockage at the age of 42.

Just thought you should all know that was my handiwork....Thank you.

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Post #: 136

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:46:02 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

For me, sex related work would be damaging... I understand your opinions about it. If you look at what happens in the modeling world women who are stick figures are labelled "fat" and given drugs to get even more thin. How many anorexics and bulimics have been created by the fashion industry? Not only amongst the models themselves, but young women who choose to emulate them.

I hesitate to dismiss the entire sex industry and fashion industry as "damaging", because it sounds like feministic patronizing. I will say that women need to be empowered to be safe and care for themselves. We need to stand up against images that encourage unhealthy behaviors... whether pornographic or from Madison Avenue.

I also dislike calling sex workers names, because many did not really choose that life, it was determined for them. It is like victimizing them all over again to call them talentless, brainless, or morally deficient.... maybe that was the only message they ever got in this life... the only thing they thought they were good for... maybe their potential was stolen from them before they had a chance to explore it... and being the tree hugging hippie liberal I am, that just makes me sad.

I had a good friend when I was a freshman in high school.. she was a foster child,... grew up to be a heroine addict and a prostitute... she was a beautiful person once upon a time, and she never had a chance.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 137

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:47:52 AM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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Her spirit got stuck in her colon?

Do the Playmates recieve damage from their job, or do damaged people gravitate to that sort of work?

< Message edited by Level -- 6/20/2010 11:50:00 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 138

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 11:54:28 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Her spirit got stuck in her colon?

Do the Playmates recieve damage from their job, or do damaged people gravitate to that sort of work?

Good question

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 139

RE: Why Just Pros? - 6/20/2010 12:00:43 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

The last few posts were extremely well written and folks are really going above and beyond expressing themselves during this thread. It's been an excellent job by those participating.

I know the pro vrs lifestyle thread got pulled, and I'd like to take this opportunity to ask that folks not bring that battle here. This isn't about if pro dommes are right or wrong. What I want to examine is why the difference in view between the pro and the client when people consider their opinions on the subject. What's going on regarding our mentality on the subject?

Domi, good links and good point. I wonder if there is any substantial information from the other side? Let's say certain industries have a higher rate regarding suicide. It would be fascinating to know if the reverse was true. Could the guilt that males might have in helping to create the higher rate translate to their own "degeneration of spirit"? What about first hand feelings because they are directly contributing to the "degeneration of spirit" to the pro they are seeing as a client?

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 140

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