RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (Full Version)

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marie2 -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 5:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 There's only one way to judge this situation as wrong, and that's to judge the rest of the risky stuff as wrong too. Not true. As I understand the story, there's been multiple hospitalizations. Who paid for them? What? That faceless "insurance"?? I can judge this as wrong simply because I'd rather not pay for their kink. You know what. On second read, I shouldn't have used the words "this situation". That was a poor choice of wording on my part. I should have used the words: "an act of this type". Many people with kink-related issues turn up in the ER, and I don't want to pay for them either. But I don't want to pay for someone who sustains injuries climbing Mt. Everest either.

thornhappy -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 5:24:37 PM)
that was my first suspicion - you could get pics right off the internet. quote: ORIGINAL: January mistoferin, Why do you believe the slave is conversing with you? Is she looking to shock you? Get help from you? What drove her to contact you in the first place? Has she revealed her motivation to reach outside to contact you? Frankly, when you first described the situation, I thought she was a BSer. (Not you, the slave). Partly because she's so eager to send you photos and describe her meals, I'm still not convinced she's real. If she is real, I'm not convinced that her master ordered her to eat so little. I mean, who got her to the hospital? Who is weighing her? Who is taking pictures of her? January

leadership527 -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 5:35:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 Many people with kink-related issues turn up in the ER, and I don't want to pay for them either. But I don't want to pay for someone who sustains injuries climbing Mt. Everest either. I don't think you do. I think a wide variety of "high risk" activities are excluded by standard insurance policies. I know one person right now who's fighting his insurance company over a rock climbing accident. This is a tricky question actually. It benefits society to have some level of risk taking going on. How much is too much is yet another one of those endless debates. I just know in this case that if this guy & girl want to do an activity which is not simply "high risk"... it has an absolute guaranteed certainty of resulting in medical costs, I wish they'd pay for those costs themselves.

mistoferin -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 5:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: January mistoferin, Why do you believe the slave is conversing with you? Is she looking to shock you? Get help from you? What drove her to contact you in the first place? Has she revealed her motivation to reach outside to contact you? Hi January, She said that she wrote to me initially because she had read something I had written on another site where I had referred to having been a counselor at one time, and wanted to ask my advice on "meddling" family members. That really didn't surprise me much, I've had similar contacts on several occasions before. I really did get the sense that her story is legit when speaking with her...and I'm usually fairly good at picking up on that. Also, at one point her Master and sister came in and she excused herself from our conversation while she greeted them...a conversation that I could hear in the background. I know that's no proof but...it just felt right. As for who is weighing her and things such as that...I'd have to assume she is. She is not bedridden or otherwise incapacitated that I am aware of.

January -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 5:59:59 PM)
Hi mistoferin, Thanks for your reply. I'm still not sure what to think about how real this slave is--or even how likely she'd be released from the hospital so easily. But in answer to your original question, if she's real, I'd say she's getting something out of the relationship. Starvation is a kink. She weighs herself, and takes before and after pictures, and describes her meals. She relishes the attention, her achievement. She seems to be proud of her service. That makes it a form of BDSM, IMO--albeit an extreme one. January

marie2 -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 6:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I just know in this case that if this guy & girl want to do an activity which is not simply "high risk"... it has an absolute guaranteed certainty of resulting in medical costs, I wish they'd pay for those costs themselves. Well, I can't disagree with that aspect of it. But once again, I don't want to pay for someone's stitches when a cutting goes wrong either. Even if it's less likely that cutting will result in a trip to the ER, than anorexia, the risk is still there that a million and one "risky" kink activities could land someone in a hospital ER. I wish there was a way to get stats on the number of people who end up in the ER from various "less risky" bdsm acts, and square it against the number who are admitted to the hospital from engaging in "pro-ana". I'd be willing to bet that we're paying for more stitches, burn injuries, and ass-plug retrievals, than bdsm-induced starvations. But of course, that's not something I can prove.

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 6:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 This is a tricky question actually. It benefits society to have some level of risk taking going on. How much is too much is yet another one of those endless debates. I just know in this case that if this guy & girl want to do an activity which is not simply "high risk"... it has an absolute guaranteed certainty of resulting in medical costs, I wish they'd pay for those costs themselves. Meh just balance it out - she's likely not going to live to 80 so all the expensive treatment she would have needed as an elderly person is getting paid for now rather than later.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 8:45:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think that the Master should go to jail. I can order my slave to go on a killing spree, its still his choice as to whether or not he does it. I for one am kind of getting tired of this mentality that if someone is choosing to be a slave it absolves them of reason and personal responsibility. A Dom can be an asshole but to be effective, the slave has got to be willing to be led by that asshole. Just to be clear, while the "slave" would be held accountable for the killing spree, you as the master who ordered it would be held EQUALLY accountable for your part. So if you are going to be tired of people being absolved of reason and personal responsibility, remember that being a dom/master who is an asshole doesn't get to run around with the whole "they didn't HAVE to listen to me" defense that is an equal attempt to run from personal accountability for one's actions. In regards to the OP, as someone else has mentioned, her family can have her legally committed because quite obviously, she is not capable of making rational decisions regardless of all the philosophical crap about her right to destroy her own body for her master's amusement. Civilized society doesn't not work that way. As for the person (sorry, forgot who) who opined on whether it would be manslaughter or murder.....In a situation like this one the prosecution would likely not only go for murder, but 1st degree/premeditated murder. Regardless of the can of worms this is likely to open up, in a situation like this, I could only hope that this was all occurring in a state that did still have the death penalty and the idiot was locked into "sparky," and fried. Which is still better than he would deserve.

SocratesNot -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 9:45:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think that the Master should go to jail. I can order my slave to go on a killing spree, its still his choice as to whether or not he does it. I for one am kind of getting tired of this mentality that if someone is choosing to be a slave it absolves them of reason and personal responsibility. A Dom can be an asshole but to be effective, the slave has got to be willing to be led by that asshole. Just to be clear, while the "slave" would be held accountable for the killing spree, you as the master who ordered it would be held EQUALLY accountable for your part. So if you are going to be tired of people being absolved of reason and personal responsibility, remember that being a dom/master who is an asshole doesn't get to run around with the whole "they didn't HAVE to listen to me" defense that is an equal attempt to run from personal accountability for one's actions. In regards to the OP, as someone else has mentioned, her family can have her legally committed because quite obviously, she is not capable of making rational decisions regardless of all the philosophical crap about her right to destroy her own body for her master's amusement. Civilized society doesn't not work that way. As for the person (sorry, forgot who) who opined on whether it would be manslaughter or murder.....In a situation like this one the prosecution would likely not only go for murder, but 1st degree/premeditated murder. Regardless of the can of worms this is likely to open up, in a situation like this, I could only hope that this was all occurring in a state that did still have the death penalty and the idiot was locked into "sparky," and fried. Which is still better than he would deserve. :applauding:

SocratesNot -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/17/2010 9:46:55 PM)
quote: You have to TAKE her out whether she likes it or not! Her 'Master' is literally KILLING her! And once she is out, put her in a home for the mentally challenged or something. I agree with this 100%. She is unable to make rational decisions, so someone else has to take responsibility for her until her rational reasoning abilities recover.

EclipseAbove -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 7:51:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot She is unable to make rational decisions, so someone else has to take responsibility for her until her rational reasoning abilities recover. That is a slippery slope. Many people would say that anyone who agrees to being flogged or beaten or <insert your favorite kink> is also not making rational decisions. I know many people who would love to have everyone kinky declared unable to make rational decisions and locked up until they "recover". Makes me think of the homosexual re-education camps that some churches run to "cure" people of homosexuality. As to the original topic, while it may be difficult to read about the results of this person's choices, I haven't heard anything that indicates non-consent or even her unhappiness with the situation. Maybe I missed something. It sounds like the only issue she has is with her family's dislike and attempt to be involved. This is one of those extreme cases that really tests the idea that consenting adults can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others. So far, I don't see it infringing on anyone more than any other activity does (every activity has an impact on others, it is just a matter of degrees). I get the arguments about the medical costs, but are we willing to react the same way to the other end of the spectrum? What about all the couples that cheerfully eat at fast food resturants ingesting literally thousands of calories of saturated fat (a Quater Pounder, Med Fries and Vanilla Shake is 1240 cal)? How about their future medical costs? That's another slippery slope. Don't get me wrong, I don't personally agree with the girl's choices or the choices of her "Master" and would not participate in that kind of activity. But I don't see this as any different than some of more extreme kink activities I've seen people do (gun play, breath play, blood letting, scat, etc.). They are very dangerous and if you do them often enough, it will lead to long-term harm and death. Until there is some indication of dislike, non-consent, or infringement on someone else, I don't see a problem. If I ever communicated with the people involved, I'd have to ask them if they understand the risks of what they are doing. If they said "yes", who am I to question what they do in their relationship? I sure don't want anyone questioning what I do in mine.

crazyml -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:02:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think that the Master should go to jail. I can order my slave to go on a killing spree, its still his choice as to whether or not he does it. I agree with your sentiment about responsibility, but I suspect that once your slave's defence lawyer had finished painting you as the demented psycho Dominatrix you'd both end up in the big house for a long long time...

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:08:41 AM)
quote: Hi mistoferin, Thanks for your reply. I'm still not sure what to think about how real this slave is--or even how likely she'd be released from the hospital so easily. But in answer to your original question, if she's real, I'd say she's getting something out of the relationship. Starvation is a kink. She weighs herself, and takes before and after pictures, and describes her meals. She relishes the attention, her achievement. She seems to be proud of her service. That makes it a form of BDSM, IMO--albeit an extreme one. It's not so hard to understand how she was released from the hospital. A minor can be committed for treatment for ana/mia at the parents' behest, however, once that person reaches 18 years of age, the only way to keep a person in treatment is to declare them "mentally incompetent" and make them a ward of the state or imprison them. Typically, the first option only happens where there is an interested party both able and willing to go through the extensive legal and psychiatric evaluations required, and who is then willing and able to take responsibility for that person for, essentially, the remainder of hir life. The second option is typically limited to individuals who have broken the law -- and there is no law about starving yourself. Adults in ana/mia programs have a horrific recidivism rate. I've dealt with this intimately, as I have a family member who has decided that, contrary to earlier decisions, she is not going to have children -- the reason? After 9 months of admissions for ana/mia treatment (yes, she's both -- she both starves and purges), she can't stop herself from going right back into the cycle within a couple of weeks of being on her own again. She's kept up with all 15 of her "classmates" who shared time with her in treatment, and all but 4 of them are now deceased, succumbing to the effects of malnutrition/starvation. The thing is, even if someone in this situation ended the situation, there is a strong possibility that xhe would continue to practice the ana/mia behaviors, especially without firm direction to reverse the trends. Left without direction, most ana/mias will compensate for their stress/anxiety about their situation by moving even deeper into the control aspects of the ana/mia behaviors. As I mentioned earlier, many of the professionals to whom I refer tend to treat ana/mia behaviors as a life-long pattern similar to the way that OCD impacts life long-term. I would also concur with porcelaine in that the mindset that allows this kind of behavior to become active has to be in existence in some form up front. Ana/mia is REALLY difficult -- it requires a rigidity of control and persistence in the face of discomfort that can't be done casually... one really does have to become nearly obsessive to be able to manage ana/mia long-term... and it isn't something that someone can -force- on another person unless xhe has the mindset to already be able/willing to go there. It's just too easy, in our world, to find ways to "cheat" if one isn't really fully committed, internally, to the process. These kinds of situations are sad, but from my perspective, the human right to self-determination of what to do with one's own body, even when it seems foolish or dangerous to me, is paramount. If we give that up in the interests of "protecting people from themselves" we abrogate the actions of free will and control of one's own body -- and that will absolutely come back to bite us in our collective butts. Calla

submittous -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:10:44 AM)
The concept of an owner controlling a slaves food intake seems to me to be witin normal bounds of M/s... taking any authority or power a Master has over their slave to dangerous extremes is an abuse. Knife play and cuttings are often part of M/s, cutting off limbs is not. Putting a slaves life at real and immediate peril can't be justified, controlling food intake and exercise CAN be a productive part of an M/s dynamic. It's all a matter of being realistic and having good judgement. This story seems to me to be an example of an out of control owner who lacks sanity checks in his life.

crazyml -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:10:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EclipseAbove quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot She is unable to make rational decisions, so someone else has to take responsibility for her until her rational reasoning abilities recover. That is a slippery slope. Many people would say that anyone who agrees to being flogged or beaten or <insert your favorite kink> is also not making rational decisions. I know many people who would love to have everyone kinky declared unable to make rational decisions and locked up until they "recover". Makes me think of the homosexual re-education camps that some churches run to "cure" people of homosexuality. I share your concerns 100% - where the hell do you draw the line... But I also feel strongly that we should try to draw one. In this case I am flabbergasted to find that I'm with SNot. In the case of the person who wants to be killed and eaten - I'd take the same view. In the case of the person who wants super extreme CBT, Castration, Limb removal - that becomes a grey area (shudder). I don't profess to "know" where the line should be drawn, but I do believe there should be one.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:17:07 AM)
Starvation is harm. Castration and limb removal are harm. The people who practice them - as the doers or the doee are ill. These are psychiatric disorders. There is no grey. That is all. best, sunshine Go ahead flame me. I'm right.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:22:19 AM)
quote: do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks? Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM? no. this slave views anorexia/bulimia as a form of suicide---a long drawn out form of suicide---with no "kink" factor whatsoever.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:27:30 AM)
quote: this slave views anorexia/bulimia as a form of suicide---a long drawn out form of suicide---with no "kink" factor whatsoever. That's exactly how I view cigarette smoking as well, but people fetishize smoking all over the place.

crazyml -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:27:37 AM)
I hear ya

Mercnbeth -> RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks (6/18/2010 8:33:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: this slave views anorexia/bulimia as a form of suicide---a long drawn out form of suicide---with no "kink" factor whatsoever. That's exactly how I view cigarette smoking as well, but people fetishize smoking all over the place. well, to be fair, not everyone who continues to smoke dies from their smoking activity...however, unless the anorexic/bulimic stops their anorexic/bulimic activities, they WILL die from it. so, in your example, smoking cigarettes is more like playing russian roulette...taking a chance on suicide...anorexia/bulimia puts a load in every chamber and verrrrrrrrry slowwwwwwwwly pulls the trigger with a guaranteed result.

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