RE: Kneeling before slaves (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:23:42 AM)

OK, I used the wrong word - I am not so sure what word would be better suitable for this situation.
But my point was - he is ordering you to accept his gesture of kneeling before you - so this is actually an order - not asking for permission.

Or, as you described, he would simply do it, without even ordering you to accept it.

Or he could just order you to sit in the chair in appropriate position, and then he would kneel, without explaining why he wants you to sit this way.



BloodLustDaddy -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:38:11 AM)

I don't comment much anymore, but to the OP.. that was some of the worst stuff I have read in a long time. It came across as some 'look how romantic I am' junk from a bad romance novel.

What gets me most is how, even if your serious,  it is almost a corruption or perversion of a romantic and noble action. I mean, really? Really?!?

--the following are how I read it :P, not exact quotes but paraphrasing--
'I would kneel before her to show how much I love her and she would be forced to accept it because I am the domly dom and its an order.'
'I would force her to accept my symbol of love even if it makes her uncomfortable, not caring if she loves me or if I even really love her.'
'It would be my mighty holy command that she accept it and she would because she has no right to say otherwise.'

Shit.. forget that noise, you care about someone just say it, you love someone just say it, they mean the world to you? just have the balls to say it!

'Look, you may be my fuck puppet slave slut but you know what? I love you, to bring a new level of happiness to my life and I admire your strength even in your submission' means a hell of a lot more then a COMMAND that they accept some meaningless ritual.

If you love someone and care about them just slip out of role for a moment, treat them like a human and tell them how you feel without commands and the crap of 'forcing' them to accept it.. it means a HELL of a lot more then all the 'super master domly king god' falseness ever will.

Sure she may be your slave but she is a fucking human also, if you really respect her that much take a moment and treat her like you do... that will show your love and she will respect you more for that then any commands you give.



SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:48:20 AM)

quote:

I don't comment much anymore, but to the OP.. that was some of the worst stuff I have read in a long time. It came across as some 'look how romantic I am' junk from a bad romance novel.

What gets me most is how, even if your serious,  it is almost a corruption or perversion of a romantic and noble action. I mean, really? Really?!?

--the following are how I read it :P, not exact quotes but paraphrasing--
'I would kneel before her to show how much I love her and she would be forced to accept it because I am the domly dom and its an order.'
'I would force her to accept my symbol of love even if it makes her uncomfortable, not caring if she loves me or if I even really love her.'
'It would be my mighty holy command that she accept it and she would because she has no right to say otherwise.'

Shit.. forget that noise, you care about someone just say it, you love someone just say it, they mean the world to you? just have the balls to say it!

'Look, you may be my fuck puppet slave slut but you know what? I love you, to bring a new level of happiness to my life and I admire your strength even in your submission' means a hell of a lot more then a COMMAND that they accept some meaningless ritual.

If you love someone and care about them just slip out of role for a moment, treat them like a human and tell them how you feel without commands and the crap of 'forcing' them to accept it.. it means a HELL of a lot more then all the 'super master domly king god' falseness ever will.

Sure she may be your slave but she is a fucking human also, if you really respect her that much take a moment and treat her like you do... that will show your love and she will respect you more for that then any commands you give.


I actually agree with you, and your approach is really fantastic. And yes, it is probably much more meaningful than any ritual.

However, the point of me kneeling before her also has a symbolic significance.

I have heard some slaves feel incredibly distressed when they see their Masters on the floor or on his knees even if he just accidentally ended in this position or if he did it in order to pick up something from the floor etc.

So, for me, it would be a great pleasure if she could accept to see her Master on his knees as well.

This would be a kind of ritual that will show that I am not untouchable and that I can also fall to my knees, and so what?
It would really be a pleasure for me if she found it acceptable to see me on my knees.



Ishtarr -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:49:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Or, as you described, he would simply do it, without even ordering you to accept it.



He can sit where ever the fuck he wants... again, you're making this far too complicated.

I've actually had situations where I've had dominant men on their knees in front of me for a variety of reasons, and I've never thought twice off it. Dominance and submission to me is not defined by actions, but by interactions.
I don't consider kneeling to necessarily be an act of submission, not even when I'm the one kneeling.
The only thing that can make kneeling an act of submission to me is the interaction that's behind the reason of "why" somebody is kneeling.

So if my man decided to get on his knees in front of me for no other reason than that he wants to, I wouldn't care at all, nor feel less submissive to him.

However, if he would make it into a whole ritual like you describe, where he would preform an "act of submission" to proof to me how freaking dominant he was over me, I would think there was something seriously wrong with him for a variety of reasons:
- First, for him making the mistake of thinking that acts are what defines submission
- Second, for him having this bizarre need to somehow "proof" his dominance over me
- Third, for him somehow tying the whole "acting submissive" thing in with "showing that he loves me" because I don't see why he shouldn't be able to express his love to me in dominant, or ever completely D/s neutral way
- Fourth, for him making the assumption that he would even have to consider demanding something like that off me, like somehow he would suspect that I would have a problem with it, and he would be thus implying that I'm not mature enough to understand the difference between and act and an interaction

Again, Socrates, get out of your own head on stuff like this and actually find some people offline that you have have, or at least watch the interaction of D/s with, because the questions you're asking and the concepts you come up with really don't make any sense to anybody who has actually experienced D/s before.





Ishtarr -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:53:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I have heard some slaves feel incredibly distressed when they see their Masters on the floor or on his knees even if he just accidentally ended in this position or if he did it in order to pick up something from the floor etc.



Where did you hear this?
Who said this?
Do these people have actual offline, face to face, long term experience with the interactions of D/s, or are we talking about people trapped in fantasies here?
Because I know a lot of people in long term D/s, M/s, TPE and just about any other power exchange dynamic, offline, for real, and I've never heard any slave/sub indicate anything like that.



wandersalone -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:56:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

However, the point of me kneeling before her also has a symbolic significance.

I have heard some slaves feel incredibly distressed when they see their Masters on the floor or on his knees even if he just accidentally ended in this position or if he did it in order to pick up something from the floor etc.



Who are these slaves..are they people that are in real life relationships?  

An ex of mine used to help by buckling my boots before we went to kink events.... it made him no less dominant, in fact it never failed to turn me on [;)]

eta - ha ha ishtarr you are way faster than me [:D]



SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:56:41 AM)

quote:

Where did you hear this?
Who said this?
Do these people have actual offline, face to face, long term experience with the interactions of D/s, or are we talking about people trapped in fantasies here?
Because I know a lot of people in long term D/s, M/s, TPE and just about any other power exchange dynamic, offline, for real, and I've never heard any slave/sub indicate anything like that.


I don't remember exactly who said that, but this was a woman who is a regular poster here, and she said it on this very same forum.



Ishtarr -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 12:59:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Where did you hear this?
Who said this?
Do these people have actual offline, face to face, long term experience with the interactions of D/s, or are we talking about people trapped in fantasies here?
Because I know a lot of people in long term D/s, M/s, TPE and just about any other power exchange dynamic, offline, for real, and I've never heard any slave/sub indicate anything like that.


I don't remember exactly who said that, but this was a woman who is a regular poster here, and she said it on this very same forum.


You're a regular poster on this forum but that still doesn't mean that you have a clue about D/s.
Don't belief everything you read online, again, once you see actually real life interaction on this sort of stuff, you'll realize that questions like these are in essence really silly because nobody ever makes a big deal about stuff like this.



wandersalone -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:00:08 AM)

so you have gone from this -

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I have heard some slaves feel incredibly distressed when they see their Masters on the floor or on his knees even if he just accidentally ended in this position or if he did it in order to pick up something from the floor etc.


to this -
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I don't remember exactly who said that, but this was a woman who is a regular poster here, and she said it on this very same forum.


So was it one person on a chat forum or a number of people?





BloodLustDaddy -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:01:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
However, the point of me kneeling before her also has a symbolic significance.

And that is great, but symbolic is just that.. its a symbol just like a flag or a cross or a stop sign, it only means something if we want it to.. honestly spoken words always mean something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I have heard same slaves feel incredibly distressed when they see their Masters on the floor or on his knees even if he just accidentally ended in this position or if he did it in order to pick up something from the floor etc.

Can't say I have ever heard any of the slaves I know say that.. in the.. hmm.. 3 years I have been an op in the chat here I have never heard that.. I am forced to question the validity of the data sampling you have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
So, for me, it would be a great pleasure if she could accept to see her Master on his knees as well.

This would be a kind of ritual that will show that I am not untouchable and that I can also fall to my knees, and so what?

And that, the very wording you yourself choose to use points to the basic root of the topic at hand.. allow me to clarify....

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
So, for me, it would be a great pleasure

Yes.. for you.. this is something that makes YOU happy, something that appeals to YOU, something that gives YOU pleasure... and that is great :D life should be filled with pleasure..

If you wish to kneel before your slave then feel free, more power to you :) but to talk about forcing acceptance is to project your own wishes, pleasures and desires on someone else.

edit: *5 years real life 24/7 tpe with a wonderful girl :D and many real life slave friends both male and female so not I am not a cyber-only person, the mention of 3 years here was just to point out that my sampling of data is from the same source location*



crazyml -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:02:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

All the traditional societies were patriarchal. So men were heads of the household and men made decisions.


This is bullshit. Utter bullshit. This is so bullshitty that a bull would be ashamed if it came out of its arse.

FFS SNot.... will you please stop uttering these worthless generalisations without at the least doing us the service of checking shit out.

I'd be impressed if you were to Google "matriarchal societies" then apologise to the board for making such a bullshit statement.

Your willingness to gambol in and make generalisations of this nature makes you look far more stupid than you probably are.




crazyml -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:06:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

If I were Master I would demand my slave to kneel before me.
However, after that, I would order her to sit in the chair and to allow me to kneel before her.
Yes, I would kneel before her, and I would demand her to accept this gesture.
This would be my symbol of my love, devotion and respect toward her,
this would be my acknowledgment of how much I love her and how much I appreciate her love, service and obedience.
I am the Master, I am the one who decides.
So, allowing me to kneel before her, would be an explicit order for her.
By this gesture I would like to exalt her for all that she is to me, and I would demand the acceptance of this gesture.


Fair enough. What is your point?

quote:




I know, I am weird.


Yes, I think you are a bit weird, and many other things besides, but the idea of wanting to kneel before a slave isn't a reason for thinking you're weird necessarily.

quote:


But, I want to ask slaves here, if your Master strictly ordered you to accept his gesture of kneeling before you, would you obey?

If you can not obey such a simple command that does not cause any damage whatsoever, how can you call yourself a submissive, or even slave?


Blah blah blah. Whatever.




SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:08:22 AM)

quote:


If you wish to kneel before your slave then feel free, more power to you :) but to talk about forcing acceptance is to project your own wishes, pleasures and desires on someone else.


Isn't the entire BDSM just a little about "forcing" and similar concepts. I am not saying that it should be this way, or that I would try to force some terrible things, but if you can't "force" your slave to do anything at all how can you consider yourself a dominant? Maybe "force" is wrong word - instead I would use "inspire", "lead to", "cause to", "order", etc.

"force" has a bad vibe, but the other terms that I mentioned are actually describing what I want to say.



SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:12:09 AM)

quote:

This is bullshit. Utter bullshit. This is so bullshitty that a bull would be ashamed if it came out of its arse.

FFS SNot.... will you please stop uttering these worthless generalisations without at the least doing us the service of checking shit out.

I'd be impressed if you were to Google "matriarchal societies" then apologise to the board for making such a bullshit statement.

Your willingness to gambol in and make generalisations of this nature makes you look far more stupid than you probably are.

.


It's not bullshit at all. There hasn't yet discovered ANY society that is truly matriarchal.

Quote from Wikipedia:

quote:

There are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal,[2][3][4][5][6][7][8] although there are a number of attested matrilinear, matrilocal and avunculocal societies, especially among indigenous peoples of Asia and Africa,[9] such as those of the Basques, Minangkabau, Mosuo, Berbers or Tuareg. Strongly matrilocal societies sometimes are referred to as matrifocal, and there is some debate concerning the terminological delineation between matrifocality and matriarchy. Note that even in patriarchical systems of male-preference primogeniture there may occasionally be queens regnant, as in the case of Elizabeth I of England or Victoria of the United Kingdom.



BloodLustDaddy -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:14:24 AM)

perhaps the words you are looking for are:

Power Exchange?
Consensual Non-Consent?
Consensual Servitude?
Structured Relationship?

Funny... non of them even speak of force.. and those are some of the big ones in the BDSM world.. but for some reason none of them bring about thoughts of force but more of willing submission... perhaps I am mistaken.

*edit: Please do NOT reference a non peer reviewed source as PROOF, wikipedia is public edited and not every entry is checked.. there are lots of other peer reviewed sources that you can use.*



SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:16:27 AM)

On matriarchy, you can find also this, in Wikipedia:

quote:

The concept of a matriarchal golden age in the Neolithic has been denounced as feminist wishful thinking in The Inevitability of Patriarchy, Why Men Rule, more recently by Philip G. Davis Goddess Unmasked, 1998, and Cynthia Eller, professor at Montclair State University The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory, 2000. According to Eller, Gimbutas had a large part in constructing a myth of historical matriarchy by examining Eastern Europe cultures that she asserts, by and large, never really bore any resemblance in character to the alleged universal matriarchal suggested by Gimbutas and Graves. She asserts that in "actually documented primitive societies" of recent (historical) times, paternity is never ignored and that the sacred status of goddesses does not automatically increase female social status, and believes that this affirms that utopian matriarchy is simply an inversion of antifeminism. The feminist scenarios of Neolithic matriarchy have been called into question and are not emphasized in third-wave feminism.



wandersalone -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:17:00 AM)

laughs..... I don't know why I feel I must continue to try and show you that real life D/s and M/s interactions are often markedly different to what you seem to think however here I go again....

I was at a kink event last weekend, two dominants who are well respected by many and have a number of years of experience in bdsm and are in M's relationships of their own decided to have a play sword fight with their canes.  It was very funny to watch and they had a lot of fun (until they were told to behave by the DM ha ha).  Neither of them was acting in the least dominant if you go by the standards seen in a chat room based on fantasy yet they are two incredibly masterful men who both happen to also be way cool guys.

I made a new fetish on fetlife called "doms who can be dags" and one of these guys was the first to join.  A person's  actions do not make them more or less of a dominant, it is their relationship with their submissive or slave that gives their dominance room to flourish in whatever way they both want it to happen.

{a dag is slang for someone who can be silly or make you roll your eyes at them in an  "omg what the hell are they doing now kind of way"}



SocratesNot -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:21:57 AM)

quote:


*edit: Please do NOT reference a non peer reviewed source as PROOF, wikipedia is public edited and not every entry is checked.. there are lots of other peer reviewed sources that you can use.*


Yes, but Wikipedia is usually reliable, and also, there are references to peer reviewed sources on the end of each article, so you can check the sources if you don't believe Wikipedia.



Surrenderwithin -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:23:21 AM)

Why is it so hard to just say that you want a strong woman to kneel before but you fear giving up that control?
Just sayin'




Ishtarr -> RE: Kneeling before slaves (6/18/2010 1:23:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

but if you can't "force" your slave to do anything at all how can you consider yourself a dominant.


You can't force people in concentual relationships.
I thought we went over this in the hard limits topic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Maybe "force" is wrong word - instead I would use "inspire", "lead to", "cause to", "order", etc.

 


Yes, force is defiantly the wrong word, the others are better, but you are still missing the whole concept behind D/s.

It's not about actions.
Not even about the action of "ordering" or any other verb you want to put in it's place.
It's about interactions.... chemistry.... bonding.... energy exchange.

Men who are dominant over me have no need to give me orders.
I've known several men over the years who could, totally relaxed, sit, kneeling at my feet, butt naked, with me in full Dominatrix fetish gear, and ask me in a calm, soft voice "would you please be so kind to go get me a cup of coffee" or even "I'm going to get a cup of coffee, would you like one too?" and yet AT THE SAME TIME still be totally, absolutely, without a hint of a doubt, unconditionally dominant towards me, and inspire my submission in way you cannot even imagine. 

I really shouldn't keep repeating myself, but you're making me (and no that doesn't make you dominant over me [;)]): you are NEVER going to get this stuff until you witness it offline.



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