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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 7:50:49 AM   
FirmhandKY


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belief system

Definitions of  belief system on the Web:

   * The basis on which beliefs are based. For example a religious belief system is based on faith and dogma whereas a scientific belief system is based on observation and reason


   * a coherent set of ideas, beliefs, principles, and values that reflect a community's "way of knowing."


   * All cultures develop a system of values that are applied to meet a culture's needs. Our understanding of the values of a culture and our acceptance or rejection of those values is often based upon our own cultural belief system.


   * A combination of ideas, values, and practices that serve a society's cultural needs. Belief systems include all religions, as well as philosophical, ethical, and moral systems.


   * A shared system of beliefs and values that systematically define a way of perceiving the social, cultural, physical and psychological world.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 7:52:07 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I think you misunderstand me.  I did not claim that atheists do not have belief systems.  Just the opposite.  I claim that they do have a belief system.

Firm



Oh, I understand you quite clearly.  I'm trying to show you why I (in particular) do NOT have a belief system.  First, I showed that I do not believe in any gods (a minor point, I admit.)  And then I show that your syllogism (although poorly written) leads to a false conclusion.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 7:53:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I think you misunderstand me.  I did not claim that atheists do not have belief systems.  Just the opposite.  I claim that they do have a belief system.

Firm



Oh, I understand you quite clearly.  I'm trying to show you why I (in particular) do NOT have a belief system.  First, I showed that I do not believe in any gods (a minor point, I admit.)  And then I show that your syllogism (although poorly written) leads to a false conclusion.

See my previous post, just prior to yours.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:02:30 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Everyone has a belief system.

Whether or not it is used to determine facts is another issue altogether.

It's no news that most of us believe we aren't going to suddenly float away or that when we turn a light switch on a light will go on. In fact when I turn the light switch on and the light fails to go on it takes me by surprise and then I reason as to why that may be. The logical answer is that the bulb has gone or I have an electrical fault, whereas the illogical answer is that god didn't want that room to light up.

What we believe, should have nothing to do with anything in terms of getting answers. Obviously if god doesn't want that room to light up then why should I even start to look into the fault? This is how religion curtails seeking answers and to deny this is to deny the history we have all witnessed.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 6/21/2010 8:08:56 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:05:08 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		@Tazzy, I am sure that you have in the past called someone an idiot or similar.

@Firm, now you're just strawmanning all to fuck.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:08:06 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@Firm, now you're just strawmanning all to fuck.

Please point it out to me in small words and short sentences.

Here, for the basis of discussion, is what I consider a "straw man" (from wikipedia):

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.  To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:09:32 AM   
heartcream


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes



::: SIGH :::

As a self-identified (in my profile) Militant Atheist, what I take umbrage at is being "strawmanned" - as the OP asks and as you have just done.

I take umbrage at your lack of understanding of the atheist position and in particular that I have no belief system.

Here's a little exercise that I love doing in debates - especially with the Christians.

Me: Do you believe in Zeus?
Them: No.
Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in the Egyptian Sun-God, Ra?
Them: No.
Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in the love Goddess, Venus?
Them: No.
Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Them: Yes, of course.
Me: Well, I don't. So, I guess I just believe in one less God than you do....

::: SIGH :::


You dont believe these beings existed?

I dont find this as brilliant of an, or as cute of a little argument as you seem to think it is. It is nice when one can pull a lil bit of something out of their pocket to present as as a way to explain their position. To me this is not working. The superior sounding sigh at the beginning and at the end dont help either.



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:10:26 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I think you misunderstand me.  I did not claim that atheists do not have belief systems.  Just the opposite.  I claim that they do have a belief system.

Firm



Oh, I understand you quite clearly.  I'm trying to show you why I (in particular) do NOT have a belief system.  First, I showed that I do not believe in any gods (a minor point, I admit.)  And then I show that your syllogism (although poorly written) leads to a false conclusion.

See my previous post, just prior to yours.

Firm


Firm;
I'll try to be as clear as I can.

I do NOT have a belief system.
You try to define a belief system so that Atheists have a belief system.

Let's see what Madalyn Murray O'Hair had to say about it:

But people ... don't even know what atheism is. It's not a negation of anything. You don't have to negate what no one can prove exists. No, atheism is a very positive affirmation of man's ability to think for himself, to do for himself, to find answers to his own problems. I'm thrilled to feel that I can rely on myself totally and absolutely; that my children are being brought up so that when they meet a problem they can't cop out by foisting it off on God. Madalyn Murray's going to solve her own problems, and nobody's going to intervene. It's about time the world got up off its knees and looked at itself in the mirror and said: "Well, we are men. Let's start acting like it."
  • Interview in Playboy

  • Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheists loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist thinks that heaven is something for which we should work for now - here on earth- for all men together to enjoy.
    • MURRAY v. CURLETT, Petition for Relief, 1959

  • An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. 
    • MURRAY v. CURLETT, Petition for Relief, 1959

    I can't find the full quote from the "Petition for Relief" on-line.  Right now, I have to go to work.

    < Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/21/2010 8:15:02 AM >

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:15:18 AM   
    marie2


    Posts: 1690
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    Status: offline     		I'm thrilled to feel that I can rely on myself totally and absolutely; that my children are being brought up so that when they meet a problem they can't cop out by foisting it off on God.


    This is a belief that her children should be raised to depend upon themselves. It's one of the principles that she lives by and raises her children under. It's a part of her belief system.


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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:16:39 AM   
    brainiacsub


    Posts: 1209
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    Status: offline     		And, once again he is using a semantic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

    Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

    ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views

    < Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/21/2010 8:37:13 AM >

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:20:13 AM   
    FirmhandKY


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
    I'll try to be as clear as I can.

    I do NOT have a belief system.
    You try to define a belief system so that Atheists have a belief system.

    Let's see what Madalyn Murray O'Hair had to say about it:

    But people ... don't even know what atheism is. It's not a negation of anything. You don't have to negate what no one can prove exists. No, atheism is a very positive affirmation of man's ability to think for himself, to do for himself, to find answers to his own problems. I'm thrilled to feel that I can rely on myself totally and absolutely; that my children are being brought up so that when they meet a problem they can't cop out by foisting it off on God. Madalyn Murray's going to solve her own problems, and nobody's going to intervene. It's about time the world got up off its knees and looked at itself in the mirror and said: "Well, we are men. Let's start acting like it."

    Lance,

    I don't really know how to effectively respond to you Lance.  It's ok that you are an atheist.  I really don't care.

    But to claim that it's not part of your belief system confuses me.  Look at the definitions I gave for "belief systems".

    Do you not have a coherent view of the world on which you base your actions?  That "coherent view" is your belief system. Does it include atheism?  As a self-defined "Militant Atheist", I must presume that it does.

    Why do you believe that you don't have a "belief system"?

    Firm


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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:20:16 AM   
    willbeurdaddy


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

    And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

    Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

    ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views


    Exactly...although the one point left out is that a "belief system" has nothing to do with "faith".

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:21:29 AM   
    RCdc


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
    It is, however, a "belief system".  Religion is also a "belief system".  Belief systems are somewhat more nebulous than a religion, and it's entirely possible that someone's belief system incorporates both religion and science.  Everyone has a "belief system", because it is nothing more than their own internal construct of reality.  You can't be human and not have one.


    I am umming and ahing about this.  I don't know if non belief is a belief system in itself.  Although I view non belief as a belief, I'd never put it in the same box as having a belief system... so that just doesn't work for me.  A belief system indicates a thought process that leads from it.  Like being a conservative for example - that is a belief system to my reckoning.  But no person can structure their life around non belief.  It just means something doesn't occur.

    the.dark.

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:21:53 AM   
    LanceHughes


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: heartcream
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
    ::: SIGH :::

    As a self-identified (in my profile) Militant Atheist, what I take umbrage at is being "strawmanned" - as the OP asks and as you have just done.

    I take umbrage at your lack of understanding of the atheist position and in particular that I have no belief system.

    Here's a little exercise that I love doing in debates - especially with the Christians.

    Me: Do you believe in Zeus?
    Them: No.
    Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in the Egyptian Sun-God, Ra?
    Them: No.
    Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in the love Goddess, Venus?
    Them: No.
    Me: Neither do I. Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
    Them: Yes, of course.
    Me: Well, I don't. So, I guess I just believe in one less God than you do....

    ::: SIGH :::


    You dont believe these beings existed?

    I dont find this as brilliant of an, or as cute of a little argument as you seem to think it is. It is nice when one can pull a lil bit of something out of their pocket to present as as a way to explain their position. To me this is not working. The superior sounding sigh at the beginning and at the end dont help either.


    I am sure there were people that believed such things existed, just as I am sure that people once thought the earth was flat.  You AND I both know there are people that believe in Jesus Christ.

    The "superior sounding sigh" is NOT meant to be superior sounding.  If you took it that way, well, I guess that shoe fit.

    The :::SIGH:: was my indication that I have used this "little argument" over and over to, exactly as you say, "explain my position."

    Why people continue to strawman aetheists is of concern, just as the OP asks.  My :::SIGH::: was meant to indicate my tiredness at doing this again and again.

    MUST go to work, sorry that I can't explain any more clearly at this time.


    < Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/21/2010 8:35:16 AM >

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:23:02 AM   
    mnottertail


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    Status: offline     		Some things are not an academic stance, I breathe without a belief that I will breathe.

    I don't wake up in the morning and reason that I will see because I believe I can see.

    There ain't no god, because I see it and feel it, if you want to quibble and say thats a belief, you would do disservice to the meaning of the word.  It requires no ignoring of rigorous proof, it requires no trust or faith.  It just is.

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:23:48 AM   
    marie2


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

    And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

    Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

    ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views


    Exactly...although the one point left out is that a "belief system" has nothing to do with "faith".



    What does a belief system have to do with? What is it based upon?

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:24:03 AM   
    DCWoody


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    Status: offline     		Well the major stand out is you've started the 'athiests believe stuff too' argument. It's utter nonsense that's defended by arguing pointlessly about dictionary definitions.

    An athiest is someone who thinks gods do not exist. Alternatively it's defined as someone who doesn't believe in a or any gods, but IMO that's a bit dodgy due to agnosticism....if agnostics are separate from athiests, and surely 'I'm not sure' doesn't count as belief....ya get my point.

    Either way, it's trash to suggest that athiesm is a belief.

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:25:44 AM   
    FirmhandKY


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

    And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

    Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

    ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views

    You're probably hopeless.

    I'll ask you the same thing I asked Woody: please use short sentences and words (I'm stooopid, yanno), and tell me what "the straw man" actually is, and how I'm not addressing it.

    Firm


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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:32:29 AM   
    FirmhandKY


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: RCdc

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
    It is, however, a "belief system".  Religion is also a "belief system".  Belief systems are somewhat more nebulous than a religion, and it's entirely possible that someone's belief system incorporates both religion and science.  Everyone has a "belief system", because it is nothing more than their own internal construct of reality.  You can't be human and not have one.


    I am umming and ahing about this.  I don't know if non belief is a belief system in itself.  Although I view non belief as a belief, I'd never put it in the same box as having a belief system... so that just doesn't work for me.  A belief system indicates a thought process that leads from it.  Like being a conservative for example - that is a belief system to my reckoning.  But no person can structure their life around non belief.  It just means something doesn't occur.


    That's acceptable reasoning to me.

    None of us have a single belief, that could be called a "belief system".  A "system" is exactly that: a group of beliefs that work together to shape our world view, and how we think.

    Often times, we tag a particular group of core beliefs as "a belief system", even though it encompasses many more than those core beliefs.

    For short hand discussion, we often talk about a "Christian belief system" or an "atheist belief system", which is simply a way to emphasize the major aspect of someone's system under discussion.  An "Atheistic belief system" is more than simply a disbelief in a deity, and is different from individual to individual.  We are primarily discussing the similarities, and use the shortened words to make that point.

    Firm

    < Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/21/2010 8:33:22 AM >

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    RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:32:58 AM   
    LanceHughes


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
    I'll try to be as clear as I can.

    I do NOT have a belief system.
    You try to define a belief system so that Atheists have a belief system.

    Let's see what Madalyn Murray O'Hair had to say about it:

    But people ... don't even know what atheism is. It's not a negation of anything. You don't have to negate what no one can prove exists. No, atheism is a very positive affirmation of man's ability to think for himself, to do for himself, to find answers to his own problems. I'm thrilled to feel that I can rely on myself totally and absolutely; that my children are being brought up so that when they meet a problem they can't cop out by foisting it off on God. Madalyn Murray's going to solve her own problems, and nobody's going to intervene. It's about time the world got up off its knees and looked at itself in the mirror and said: "Well, we are men. Let's start acting like it."

    Lance,

    I don't really know how to effectively respond to you Lance.  It's ok that you are an atheist.  I really don't care.

    But to claim that it's not part of your belief system confuses me.  Look at the definitions I gave for "belief systems".

    Do you not have a coherent view of the world on which you base your actions?  That "coherent view" is your belief system. Does it include atheism?  As a self-defined "Militant Atheist", I must presume that it does.

    Why do you believe that you don't have a "belief system"?

    Firm


    brainiacsub answered for me, and answered BEFORE you continued with you nonsensical strawmaning of telling me that I MUST have a belief system under YOUR definition.

    I live my life without beliefs, just as I live it without gods.

    Now I AM late for work, and I promise, I'm not coming back to feed the trolls no mo'.

    And for your reference, here's brainiacsub's answer.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

    And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

    Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

    ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views


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