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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:36:31 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't the argument more that there's no evidence for a God, and a number of reasons why there isn't one? There's certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence that parts of the Bible are untrue, and if that's bollocks, then the Christian God goes out of the window.


Are you saying that Christians own the concept of a deity?

Of course not. I think everybody who's talking about their faith and/or trying to justify their religion in this thread is a Christian, though.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:36:34 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is not the hypocrisy that bugs me, it is the attacks on threads that shouldn't even concern Atheists as a way to insult people who believe differently...

Example: I started what I considered a philosophical thread about what time means if there is no such thing as time in relation to life after death. I wanted the thread to spark thoughtful responses, for people to digest that through the lens of whatever belief system they have... instead several Atheists used it as an excuse to shit all over what other posters had contributed as far as their thoughts and feelings on the topic were concerned...

I do not go into churches and denounce people's beliefs. I don't go into free thought conventions (and they do have them) and denounce those people. I expect respect when I want to talk about stuff of a spiritual nature. I have very little respect for the Atheists that used that thread as an excuse to shit on others.... it shows they are classless... and bullies


No, your thread was as disingenuous as you are being right now.

You create a thread about a possible afterlife, and being the wide-eyed innocent that you claim to be, are suddenly astonished to find religion being discussed.



Is it illegal to discuss religion on such a thread? Why would I not want to talk about that subject in a mature reasonable way without insulting people? Are you saying people don't have the right to express their beliefs without ridicule from the anti-god squad?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:38:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't the argument more that there's no evidence for a God, and a number of reasons why there isn't one? There's certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence that parts of the Bible are untrue, and if that's bollocks, then the Christian God goes out of the window.


Are you saying that Christians own the concept of a deity?

Of course not. I think everybody who's talking about their faith and/or trying to justify their religion in this thread is a Christian, though.


I see people who just want to be free to say "I believe in this" without a bunch of jerks stomping on them... why should they have to justify jack shit to you?

Either you believe, or you don't, insulting people, trying to prove each other "wrong", what a fucking immature and irrational thing to do

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:47:37 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		replying to myself....

I will say I actually kinda do have a religion, at least if I felt qualified and knowledgeable enough to adhere to it.... I think Taoism is extraordinarily in line with my worldview... Taoists often do not believe in a deity, although some do. They are also not dogmatic, and I don't think it would be in keeping with a Taoist to argue about whose god was bigger, or whether or not there is a god at all...Which is one of many reasons why I like it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:47:54 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Er, when did I do or say that?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:50:21 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't the argument more that there's no evidence for a God, and a number of reasons why there isn't one? There's certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence that parts of the Bible are untrue, and if that's bollocks, then the Christian God goes out of the window.


Are you saying that Christians own the concept of a deity?

Of course not. I think everybody who's talking about their faith and/or trying to justify their religion in this thread is a Christian, though.


If that were true, some of that that would be to do with geography and cultures participating on CM, though Moonhead.

I would hesitate that this is the case though.  I know for sure that three people participating do not identify as christian (I tend to be direct and ask people outright) and can only state for a fact that I know for definate that one has.

That is something that happens a lot though - that many of those with disbelief identify anyone who mentions 'faith' as a christian and that is something of a strawman in itself.

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:50:50 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Er, when did I do or say that?


You said that people were trying to "justify" on this thread and that they were Christians that were doing that...

I did not say you were the jerk, I made the observation that many were stomping on them and attempting to make them justify themselves...

I liked Holly's response... she did not fall into the trap of justifying anything, and I don't think she should have to

Edited to add, perhaps "jerk" isn't the right term...



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/21/2010 2:58:11 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 2:51:57 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Can you honestly say that atheists have no faith? In anything? Anything at all? Or are you doing as they have done and utilizing, out of the many definitions there are for that word, the one related to religion?

I might judge people by my standards - judgement rocks!  BUT -
I don't judge other people and then impose or force them on others.
So, essentially... I don't believe that you or I, as non atheists can be correct in saying that all atheists have faith.  I cannot believe that you nor I can say they have no faith either.  I'd feel just the same if an atheist told me that I must be a christian because I believe in God.

Tazzy, with all respects - I will and have answered your question - will you respond to mine?
quote:

 
Leaving aside your reference to Cline -

You stated in clear words earlier that you have never labled a whole group of individuals anything.

A few moments later you stated that atheists have faith.

You don't find that hypocritical?


the.dark.




I thought i did. But i will attempt to gain your understanding yet again. I said they have faith god does not exist. Without proof, thats all we have.. faith. You, and others like vincent, see that term in definition of a religious belief. But the word does hold other definitions.

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3263683/mpage_18/tm.htm

I have absolute faith that my son adores me. A strong conviction of belief. That faith has nothing to do with religion.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:00:58 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Can you honestly say that atheists have no faith? In anything? Anything at all? Or are you doing as they have done and utilizing, out of the many definitions there are for that word, the one related to religion?

No Tazzy, that is not correct. Atheists have no Faith, as in we don't believe in deities or religious dogma that invents them. You should go back and re-read mine and Vincent's posts in these two threads. We covered that over and over.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:01:22 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't the argument more that there's no evidence for a God, and a number of reasons why there isn't one? There's certainly plenty of circumstantial evidence that parts of the Bible are untrue, and if that's bollocks, then the Christian God goes out of the window.


Are you saying that Christians own the concept of a deity?

Of course not. I think everybody who's talking about their faith and/or trying to justify their religion in this thread is a Christian, though.


If that were true, some of that that would be to do with geography and cultures participating on CM, though Moonhead.

I would hesitate that this is the case though.  I know for sure that three people participating do not identify as christian (I tend to be direct and ask people outright) and can only state for a fact that I know for definate that one has.

That is something that happens a lot though - that many of those with disbelief identify anyone who mentions 'faith' as a christian and that is something of a strawman in itself.

the.dark.

Fair enough. As you say, most on here are either Americans or Europeans, so they're a lot more likely to be Christian than (say) Moslem or Hindu. A cultural thing, but I was forgetting that there's quite a few jewish posters on here as well. Hopefully there aren't any $cientologists, though.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:01:56 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I thought i did. But i will attempt to gain your understanding yet again. I said they have faith god does not exist. Without proof, thats all we have.. faith. You, and others like vincent, see that term in definition of a religious belief. But the word does hold other definitions.

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3263683/mpage_18/tm.htm

I have absolute faith that my son adores me. A strong conviction of belief. That faith has nothing to do with religion.


But that does not answer my question tazzy, it's an explaination that you are using the word faith in different ways.  That isn't what I am asking you.  I did not ask if you used the word faith with different connotations and to explain them.

I asked why you contradicted yourself in the same post, if you saw yourself do it and if you found that hypocritical ?

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:02:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You have no religious faith. Understood. Without the scientific proof you claim you need to verify or deny, you are operating on a strong conviction ... faith.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 372
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:03:49 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I asked why you contradicted yourself in the same post, if you saw yourself do it and if you found that hypocritical ?

the.dark.


That was asked and answered. Its not my fault you didnt like the answer.

But, just to say i didnt mislead you, here is the answer.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3269922

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/21/2010 3:05:52 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:04:45 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Can you honestly say that atheists have no faith? In anything? Anything at all? Or are you doing as they have done and utilizing, out of the many definitions there are for that word, the one related to religion?

No Tazzy, that is not correct. Atheists have no Faith, as in we don't believe in deities or religious dogma that invents them. You should go back and re-read mine and Vincent's posts in these two threads. We covered that over and over.


Out of interest brainiac, how does the word 'disbelief' work for you?  Good/bad/indifferent?  Is it a better word than non belief?  Or am I completely missing the point?

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:04:58 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I see people who just want to be free to say "I believe in this" without a bunch of jerks stomping on them... why should they have to justify jack shit to you?

Either you believe, or you don't, insulting people, trying to prove each other "wrong", what a fucking immature and irrational thing to do


I think when your religious beliefs promote harming others it is a problem.

Taoism is not centered around a deity but is more of a philosophical approach to life than it is a religion.

I also think for the sense of this particular discussion it is important to admit that a belief in a religion based upon theism and monotheism is one which is not based on reason or rational thought.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/21/2010 3:06:01 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:07:04 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I asked why you contradicted yourself in the same post, if you saw yourself do it and if you found that hypocritical ?

the.dark.


That was asked and answered. Its not my fault you didnt like the answer.


So you choose not to answer?  That's cool enough for me.

the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:07:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I did answer. Go back and check again. Gesh.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 377
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:08:10 PM   
marie2


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From: Jersey
Status: offline 		The thing is Tazzy, some of them don't want to see the alternate useage of the word faith. I think in many people's minds, it's an automatic association with religion.

Even with people acknowledging and clarifying the difference between religious faith and trust-type faith, some of the non-god believers were still very uncomfortable with the use of the word "faith" in the same sentence as the word "atheist".

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:09:50 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I understand that, marie. Honestly, i do. But i wont change how i use a word properly to suit the comfort level of others.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:11:29 PM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You have no religious faith. Understood. Without the scientific proof you claim you need to verify or deny, you are operating on a strong conviction ... faith.

No, my conviction - or lack thereof - is based on reason, not faith. This distinction has been made many times in this thread.


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