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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:14:31 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I see people who just want to be free to say "I believe in this" without a bunch of jerks stomping on them... why should they have to justify jack shit to you?

Either you believe, or you don't, insulting people, trying to prove each other "wrong", what a fucking immature and irrational thing to do


I think it is when your religious beliefs promote harming others is a problem.

Taoism is not centered around a deity but is more of a philosophical approach to life than it is a religion.

I also think for the sense of this particular discussion it is important to admit that a belief in a religion based upon theism and monotheism is one which is not based on reason or rational thought.




I have not read one belief system on this thread that would lead to genocide, or something harmful like that...

I also do not think that the answers to the big questions are answered through rational thought. I have no interest in using the scientific method to explain the meaning of life. I also don't think there is anything "rational" about debating the existence or nonexistence of a deity...

I like South Park, and their depiction of life after death, the Mormons were right and the rest of us are going to hell... why not? It makes as much sense to me as not believing in god, or believing in him...

You have stated it is all about rationality... that view is married to Enlightenment thinking... which is basically founded on a Eurocentric view. The thinkers of this era thought that the White Man was really the only enlightened person, women, Jews, Peasants, and everyone else in the world, could not be rational. Man over Nature, etc etc etc... Logic and reason...


There is time and a place for logic and reason.... but when I am trying to figure out why a dream of my dead father felt so real after I haven't seen him in 30 years, and getting to hold his hands again, and waking up feeling like my hands had been held, well i don't need logic or reason to explain that to me. That has real meaning to me, and i could give a fuck about which god out there controlling these things I don't understand... I do not need there to be a god... what I need to know is that it has meaning... logic and reason don't get me where I want to go, then I use other ways to get there.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to domiguy)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:16:11 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I did answer. Go back and check again. Gesh.


No you didn't tazzy, you strawmanned me.
See OP, it's not just atheists that get it done to them that's ok...(i'd put a smilie tazzy, but I did not want you to misunderstand and believe I was being sarcastic - I just think it's a bit funny that's all - it's all good.)

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:19:38 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ok. what do ya say everyone comes to a nice mutual agreement in 5 more pages.

Deal?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:20:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And mine is also based upon reason and conviction, especially related to the medical field.

I keep seeing people post that they have come to their conclusion through reason. I have yet to see what that reasoning process is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:21:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok. what do ya say everyone comes to a nice mutual agreement in 5 more pages.

Deal?


I was trying to get there in ONE more page!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:21:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I did answer. Go back and check again. Gesh.


No you didn't tazzy, you strawmanned me.
See OP, it's not just atheists that get it done to them that's ok...(i'd put a smilie tazzy, but I did not want you to misunderstand and believe I was being sarcastic - I just think it's a bit funny that's all - it's all good.)

the.dark.


No, its not all good, nor did i strawman you. I stated something i did not believe in for shock value. And it worked. I pointed out later that i did not believe in what i posted, and the reasons why i posted what i did. Thats not strawmanning anyone.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/21/2010 3:22:13 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 386
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:21:53 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		You are so naive.

It's cute!

_____________________________

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:22:43 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok. what do ya say everyone comes to a nice mutual agreement in 5 more pages.

Deal?


Aw Jeffff, you won't get an agreement on that, let alone anything else.
I'm sure there is far too many definitions of 'mutual' to argue semantics over.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:23:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are so naive.

It's cute!


and here rulemyworld thought I was being sly....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:26:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2



And the trust that they believe their "rational thought" is correct. Rational thought is subjective, and certainly isn't scientific proof.


No, but rational thought leads to scientific proof, something that faith can never do.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 390
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:27:25 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Really.... I never noticed you being shy.

But if the good lord wills it........:)

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 391
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:28:42 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No, its not all good, nor did i strawman you. I stated something i did not believe in for shock value. And it worked. I pointed out later that i did not believe in what i posted, and the reasons why i posted what i did. Thats not strawmanning anyone.


You kinda just gave the definition of one.

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 6/21/2010 3:29:42 PM >

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:29:46 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl




I have called many people many names. But i have never labled a whole group of individuals as anything.



I am quite certain that you have given conservatives many labels. And for several of you, its "label" and "labeled".

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:30:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I have read the "official" definition of one.

Allow me to give you another definition.

In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with for the sake of argument. This process can also be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:31:12 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

The thing is Tazzy, some of them don't want to see the alternate useage of the word faith. I think in many people's minds, it's an automatic association with religion.

Even with people acknowledging and clarifying the difference between religious faith and trust-type faith, some of the non-god believers were still very uncomfortable with the use of the word "faith" in the same sentence as the word "atheist".

Marie, I disagree with you. Atheists in these two threads have only had a problem with the way the words "faith" and "belief" were misused by Firm and Treasure. Atheists have never claimed that they have no faith or belief in anything. All we have said is that disbelief in dieties is a position derived from reason, not faith. We object to these silly semantic arguments that put faith on parity with reason only for the purpose of creating a false logic that both positions are equally valid (or equally flawed, if you prefer).

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:32:07 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
And for several of you, its "label" and "labeled".


Pffft... if that's all I have incorrect sofar with my level of dyslexia, I am doing groovy.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:32:20 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I see people who just want to be free to say "I believe in this" without a bunch of jerks stomping on them... why should they have to justify jack shit to you?

Either you believe, or you don't, insulting people, trying to prove each other "wrong", what a fucking immature and irrational thing to do


I think it is when your religious beliefs promote harming others is a problem.

Taoism is not centered around a deity but is more of a philosophical approach to life than it is a religion.

I also think for the sense of this particular discussion it is important to admit that a belief in a religion based upon theism and monotheism is one which is not based on reason or rational thought.




I have not read one belief system on this thread that would lead to genocide, or something harmful like that...

I also do not think that the answers to the big questions are answered through rational thought. I have no interest in using the scientific method to explain the meaning of life. I also don't think there is anything "rational" about debating the existence or nonexistence of a deity...

I like South Park, and their depiction of life after death, the Mormons were right and the rest of us are going to hell... why not? It makes as much sense to me as not believing in god, or believing in him...

You have stated it is all about rationality... that view is married to Enlightenment thinking... which is basically founded on a Eurocentric view. The thinkers of this era thought that the White Man was really the only enlightened person, women, Jews, Peasants, and everyone else in the world, could not be rational. Man over Nature, etc etc etc... Logic and reason...


There is time and a place for logic and reason.... but when I am trying to figure out why a dream of my dead father felt so real after I haven't seen him in 30 years, and getting to hold his hands again, and waking up feeling like my hands had been held, well i don't need logic or reason to explain that to me. That has real meaning to me, and i could give a fuck about which god out there controlling these things I don't understand... I do not need there to be a god... what I need to know is that it has meaning... logic and reason don't get me where I want to go, then I use other ways to get there.


You misunderstand me completely. We are actually in 100% agreement.

So often when it comes down to religious or spiritual beliefs there is no place for logic or reason. Again, I agree 100%.

You can call it whatever you like.

The problem lies with people, I use the word PEOPLE to be nice when describing Firm and his ilk, that claim they use the same process to explain their belief in the reality of holding their dead father's hand or God as they do in believing Barack Obama is a good president.

They simply don't. they give a great deal of the benefit of the doubt towards their approach to religion that they are not willing or seemingly unable to give to other ideas where they have equally as strong of feelings.

But they contend they have no differences in their processes, that they harbor no hypocrisy.

Of course, as usual they are mistaken.

Make sense?

_____________________________



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:32:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		As much as we object to the classification that religious people are inferior.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:33:33 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Even with people acknowledging and clarifying the difference between religious faith and trust-type faith, some of the non-god believers were still very uncomfortable with the use of the word "faith" in the same sentence as the word "atheist".


The reason being, marie, that I see it as a disingenuous attempt to develop an equivalency and so turn atheism into a quasi religion. Personally, I view it as sophistry engaged just to manipulate a debate. But, that's just me. Anyone can strawman me all they wish; it stimulates brain cells. Makes me tingle

Two other points:

I have no faith regarding any supernatural beings in any sense of the word. I live a human-centered life with the acceptance that this is our only dance and try to build a system of ethics from that position.

Secondly, no intention by me to disregard people of non-christian spirituality. Whatever works for you is good by me. But yanno, Christianity is the basis for Western Civilization. It is the big kahonna (sp?) the big enchalada.... it is the Moby Dick of religions, the 800 pound gorilla in the room (endless metaphors.. lmao!) It demands attention. So, I dare say, it is what preoccupies many disbelievers (thank you the.dark) Capt Ahab cannot stare out at the sea without Christianity looming very large. Just my way of saying I know there are other spiritual persuasions and I personally don't ignore, denigrate, strawman any of them if I can help it. But really, it is difficult to disbelieve in Western religious concepts without thinking first of Christian Doctrine.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 3:34:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		FR

quote:

religion is primarily a result of stupidity, not a cause.
I assume that came from DCWoody since Tgirl lumped it in with a bunch of other quotes. Belief in god is genetic and located in a very specific region of the brain. Religion is the result of desire for power over others that capitalizes on the illusion the brain creates.

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Profile   Post #: 400
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