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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

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ORIGINAL: marie2

The thing is Tazzy, some of them don't want to see the alternate useage of the word faith. I think in many people's minds, it's an automatic association with religion.

Even with people acknowledging and clarifying the difference between religious faith and trust-type faith, some of the non-god believers were still very uncomfortable with the use of the word "faith" in the same sentence as the word "atheist".

Marie, I disagree with you. Atheists in these two threads have only had a problem with the way the words "faith" and "belief" were misused by Firm and Treasure. Atheists have never claimed that they have no faith or belief in anything. All we have said is that disbelief in dieties is a position derived from reason, not faith. We object to these silly semantic arguments that put faith on parity with reason only for the purpose of creating a false logic that both positions are equally valid (or equally flawed, if you prefer).

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Atheists have never claimed that they have no faith or belief in anything.

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All we have said is that disbelief in dieties is a position derived from reason, not faith.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Creamy, you know I love you, but that's my point.

It has always been necessary to create a god to be responsible for all this shit.

Whether it is to explain an eclipse or why cancer kills children.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Oh... so you believe we are on some grand march forward through time?


edited to add, you should frame your answer carefully, because if you do not I will crush you in the jaws of your own logic

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There are explanations why Hitler happened, why all the cray shit happens and it is not God's fault.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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There are explanations why Hitler happened, why all the cray shit happens and it is not God's fault.

No, it's the devil's fault.

I am not being facetious.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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I don't know anyone who has made this claim. Another strawman, tazz.

Not my fault she cant read.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Creamy, you know I love you, but that's my point.

It has always been necessary to create a god to be responsible for all this shit.

Whether it is to explain an eclipse or why cancer kills children.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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I have read this entire thread and I do recall this post. I never saw it as a strawman, but instead as an unnecessary insult that did nothing to further this debate. Not every insult is a strawman, tazz.

For a "braniac" touting "logic" yours is sorely lacking.

She wasn't saying that insult was a strawman. She was saying that there have been atheists who have said religious people were inferior and YOU claimed that was a strawman because you didn't know any atheists who did that..

She pointed you to a post that showed there were, which you claim to have read that disproved your assertation.

Whether or not it's true that religious people are inferior to atheists is irrelevant - you said that no atheists claimed that, and now you're more or less claiming it yourself. So like Tazzy said, check your facts before you accuse someone else of strawmanning.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Beliefs held "by faith" may be seen existing in a number of relationships to rationality:

Faith as underlying rationality: In this view, all human knowledge and reason is seen as dependent on faith: faith in our senses, faith in our reason, faith in our memories, and faith in the accounts of events we receive from others. Accordingly, faith is seen as essential to and inseparable from rationality. According to René Descartes, rationality is built first upon the realization of the absolute truth "I think therefore I am", which requires no faith. All other rationalizations are built outward from this realization, and are subject to falsification at any time with the arrival of new evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

Rational faith, then, is an important component of rational thinking. In fact, Fromm believed that creative thinking begins with a “rational vision,” a vision that results from study, reflective thinking, and observation.

In other words, rational faith is rooted in one’s own experiences, thoughts, observations, and judgments. Irrational faith, on the other hand, is the acceptance of something as true only because an authority or the majority say it is.

The rational believer must have faith in his core being. He must have trust in himself — know that the person he really is will not change with changing circumstances. If we lose faith in who we are, we become dependent on others and change in ways to gain their approval. Not a good thing.

http://blog.robertringer.com/2009/08/14/rational-vs-irrational-faith/

The precise way in which reason differs from emotion, faith, and tradition is controversial, because all three are considered to be both potentially rational, and in potential conflict with reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason

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ORIGINAL: marie2

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Creamy, you know I love you, but that's my point.

It has always been necessary to create a god to be responsible for all this shit.

Whether it is to explain an eclipse or why cancer kills children.

or why hos are icky.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those same reactions can be hardnessed by fear, hatred.. any emotion. How can it be proven that its love? How do you prove love exists?

And i can give you chilling stories of mothers who have rejected their newborns. So utilizing the argument that love is to promote the species and protect infants is a fallacy. There are many who state they are incapable of love, and just as many who do not hold those feelings in a D/s relationship.

Why is it a fallacy because you can bring up a hand full of exceptions to the rule?

It's big time news when a mother kills her kids. It definitely is the exception to the rule and does not in the least negate what he wrote.

You are really not very good at this.

A child does not have to die to be "unloved" nor does it have to be harmed physically. And there are many children throughout the world that are harmed physically, abused by their mothers that never make it to the press.

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ORIGINAL: heartcream
No problem but then consider, who created the devil? It all goes back, back back.

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How about I let each reader decide for themselves whether they think scientific progress has advanced the cause of humanity and by which measures.

I for one do not wish to be crushed at this point in time. I want to live to see this topic resurrected yet another day.

But it would be a good topic for a new thread if you were so inclined.

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The yardstick is called progress.

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he name “the teleological argument” is derived from the Greek word telos, meaning “end” or “purpose”

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thank you, Elisabella. I didnt expect a response from her about the true reason for my post. I have learned over the years not many here will accept responsibility when they are wrong.

Such is the arena of debate, and obviously the way of brainiacs.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those same reactions can be hardnessed by fear, hatred.. any emotion. How can it be proven that its love? How do you prove love exists?

And i can give you chilling stories of mothers who have rejected their newborns. So utilizing the argument that love is to promote the species and protect infants is a fallacy. There are many who state they are incapable of love, and just as many who do not hold those feelings in a D/s relationship.

Why is it a fallacy because you can bring up a hand full of exceptions to the rule?

It's big time news when a mother kills her kids. It definitely is the exception to the rule and does not in the least negate what he wrote.

You are really not very good at this.

A child does not have to die to be "unloved" nor does it have to be harmed physically. And there are many children throughout the world that are harmed physically, abused by their mothers that never make it to the press.

There are entire cultures of people out there that mothers have no feelings at all for their kids, and they don't raise them... humanity is really variable

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella


And it's the second guy who gets called God and the first guy who gets called Devil. WTF, seriously?

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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There are explanations why Hitler happened, why all the cray shit happens and it is not God's fault.

No, it's the devil's fault.

I am not being facetious.

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ORIGINAL: domiguy
That is not at all what she said....Can you fuckers not read?

Who said you could get off your knees?....I could use a lot more worshiping and a little less typing and yacking from the peanut gallery.

She said that studies have proven this assertion out. It might be off the the path of the debate but in itself it is not necessarily incorrect.

if you have a problem with the study you need to take it up with the researchers who conducted it....Now back to our regularly never ending discussion.

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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As much as we object to the classification that religious people are inferior.

I don't know anyone who has made this claim. Another strawman, tazz.