RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:49:05 PM)

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61".



brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:53:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
It is reductionist way of approaching the debate, especially when there are Christians on this thread telling you that you are reducing their faith.....


I'm sorry but you are just nitpicking.  I'm quite sensitive about marginalized religions, what being an atheist and all.  In what way does this further a discussion about anything other than the reductionism of Christianity?


Agree.

julia - this will be my last post on this particular topic. I only entered this debate to show tazzy that it is a contradiction in definitions and ideas for one to claim that they are both an Atheist and a Christian. The vast majority of Christians and Atheists would agree with this. No definition of Christian that you have provided contradicts my position. Christianity, at it's very core, is a monotheistic religion. Monotheism and Atheism are polar opposites.

Fundamental to the core of Christianity for 90% of Christians on the planet is a belief in the divinity of Christ, not just the teachings. It's not only the atheists that you'll have to argue with on this point, because most Christians reading these forums would agree with me. Like Domi said, you are splitting hairs.



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thats his point, willbe. It isnt true, which he just recently admitted he doesnt believe.

No, I brought that up directly after I did it, in a post which you responded to. If you failed to understand me until recently that's a different matter.



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:56:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
You're being pretty abusive but that's just too funny. :)

That's actually pretty neutral for domi, you should see abusive!



juliaoceania -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 12:57:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
It is reductionist way of approaching the debate, especially when there are Christians on this thread telling you that you are reducing their faith.....


I'm sorry but you are just nitpicking.  I'm quite sensitive about marginalized religions, what being an atheist and all.  In what way does this further a discussion about anything other than the reductionism of Christianity?


Agree.

julia - this will be my last post on this particular topic. I only entered this debate to show tazzy that it is a contradiction in definitions and ideas for one to claim that they are both an Atheist and a Christian. The vast majority of Christians and Atheists would agree with this. No definition of Christian that you have provided contradicts my position. Christianity, at it's very core, is a monotheistic religion. Monotheism and Atheism are polar opposites.

Fundamental to the core of Christianity for 90% of Christians on the planet is a belief in the divinity of Christ, not just the teachings. It's not only the atheists that you'll have to argue with on this point, because most Christians reading these forums would agree with me. Like Domi said, you are splitting hairs.


I agree that this entire line of conversation is a sideline,....


My point is that if tazzy defines her beliefs differently than you define her beliefs, you are creating a strawman belief system and attributing it to her....

I don't know what tazzy believes, I can't seem to decipher it between her posts about belief and faith and her arguing over what "is" means



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:03:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
I'm not trying to validate one side or the other. I'm just trying to look at the situation, as it transpired, from an objective point of view.

I understood that and wanted to thank you for it, it was refreshing after some of the posts I've been reading through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
I don't know what Firm's intentions were, and I'm not convinced that anything disingenous was going in. I didn't pick up on that, and I'm not sure that was his point. I'm not inside his head. But to each his own when it comes to trying to sense someone else's intentions.

I don't claim to know Firm's intentions either, that's why I started this thread. I'm trying to understand why this happens. Why did we go around in a circle for so long, why is it happening again.



RCdc -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:08:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I don't know what tazzy believes, I can't seem to decipher it between her posts about belief and faith and her arguing over what "is" means


How can anyone, when tazzy has admitted that she uses strawmen, plays devils advocate and doesn't like to disclose personal information to strangers on a forum - just to make people think?

I am honestly really surprised that GS has managed to stay so calm.  His entire thread has been completely taken over by discussions of how to define faith and how to define christianity and how to pin down what 'insert relevant word here' means.

And even domi posted something serious(no offense domi).
I think that's a sign of the apocalypse, I must check revelations...

the.dark.
(apology to GS for getting caught up in the hijack)



brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:08:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania



I agree that this entire line of conversation is a sideline,....


My point is that if tazzy defines her beliefs differently than you define her beliefs, you are creating a strawman belief system and attributing it to her....

[...]

No, I am saying that people are entitled to their own beliefs, but not their own definitions. She is creating definitions or bastardizing them to support her beliefs. She is also using as source material definitions that the majority who hold those beliefs would not agree with. I cannot redefine what a Jew is or a Muslim is, just so that I can call myself one, but I can believe whatever I want. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

(ok...this was absolutely the last post...)



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just as there are some atheists who claim, catergorically, that there are no gods


Wrong on the bolded points, tazz. Believing in gods - any gods - defeats the purpose of atheism. I will take exception with any atheist who claims otherwise, just like I would take exception with any Christian who claims they don't believe Jesus is God.

I'm going to disagree with you:

1. I don't think Tazzy was claiming that there are some atheists that believe in gods, I think she was claiming that both strong and weak atheism exist.
2. As an atheist I don't feel like I'm in a position to define what a twue Christian is. If someone like Thomas Jefferson says he's a Christian because he follows the moral philosophy of Christ but rejects all the supernatural claims, I'm willing to accept that. He is however using the label in a sense that can't be used interchangeably with someone that believes that Christ is god, doing so would be an equivocation fallacy. 



RCdc -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:25:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
As an atheist I don't feel like I'm in a position to define what a twue Christian is.

So how do you feel when it's done to you reverse?  I'm not just talking about strawman arguements.(Hope it's ok to ask)

quote:

 If someone like Thomas Jefferson says he's a Christian because he follows the moral philosophy of Christ but rejects all the supernatural claims, I'm willing to accept that. He is however using the label in a sense that can't be used interchangeably with someone that believes that Christ is god, doing so would be an equivocation fallacy. 

Ok - I can dig that.  But is that weak/strong christianity (IYO) or do you (as an atheist) see all christianity as weak?

the.dark.



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:26:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable?


As an "atheist", I don't bother caring where Christians, Jews or Muslims place me in their theistic taxonomy. I'm sure it has been said already in this thread (I haven't read any of the replies) but I figured I might reiterate: making a straw man of anyone when supposedly getting to the truth is bad form. Unfortunately, both sides of "the debate" do it. Some God fearing types wrestle with eating plenty of doubt porridge daily, and embracing atheism does not preclude spirituality outright. What's important is for both sides to stop caricaturizing each other. Unfortunately, that is hard to do for us grown-ups sometimes.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies. —Nietzsche




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 1:46:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
julia, I am a pragmatist. I also have formal education in Comparative Theology (it was my minor). For the purpose of these discussions, the pragmatic thing to do is go with the 90 - 10 rule. 90% of the Christians on the planet fit the definition of Christian as determined by the Nicene Creed. If you want to debate what the other 10% believe, feel free but I am not joining you. That is not a strawman.

Most Christians are in deed the by product children of the Nicene Creed. I can assure anybody that I'm well within the 10% other range and it gets even smaller when compared to other things. I do not believe in the Trinity Doctrine, I do not believe in the whole virgin birth and many other things. I am not torn with conflicts over Elohim being pural with the Trinity being tossed out, but that sort of goes back to another counsil in another time. Hell, I don't believe that Adam and Eve were the first human beings, however they were the start or beginnings of the Jewish race. Most of all, I don't buy into all this business about Aliens breeding humans either. Human did a fine job of breeding other human beings for slave purposes just fine for thousands of years. Also, there is significance about Jesus at the right hand of somebody else. The Devine Counsil sheds a little higher understanding and light upon this mysterious funny business. Regardless of what anybody else believes, I know that reached a place nearly 15 years ago, where I had to depart from 90% of the fish swimming in the sea. Once you see certain amount of truth there is no turning or going back.

Seriously, I'm a kind of funny guy, I refuse to pray to Jesus, I don't engage in insincere prayer and I'm at a point where I am questioning which is the greater. The head of the devine council that choose a certain people as his own, or the spirit. I do know that I'm well off the comfortable well beaten path. None the less, I myself can not become an atheist anymore than I can become a follower of the Nicene Creed. I'm just another human being on this spinning ride called Earth.




Jeffff -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 2:40:57 PM)

FR!!!!!!!

37 pages and you pussy's are gonna let this thread die?

Lord have mercy!



marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 3:09:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

FR!!!!!!!

37 pages and you pussy's are gonna let this thread die?

Lord have mercy!



I have faith....I mean....reasonable belief and an expectation that it will continue!



MarcEsadrian -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 3:17:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I have faith....I mean....reasonable belief and an expectation that it will continue!


But remember! Faith that doesn't question is dead faith.



brainiacsub -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 3:49:58 PM)

My contribution to get this thread to 40 pages:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Just as there are some atheists who claim, catergorically, that there are no gods


Wrong on the bolded points, tazz. Believing in gods - any gods - defeats the purpose of atheism. I will take exception with any atheist who claims otherwise, just like I would take exception with any Christian who claims they don't believe Jesus is God.

I'm going to disagree with you:

1. I don't think Tazzy was claiming that there are some atheists that believe in gods, I think she was claiming that both strong and weak atheism exist.

From her quote above, it sure looks like you are right. I am normally not this careless, so I could swear that somewhere she stated that some atheists believe in god(s), which is what prompted my response. I don't feel like digging through this thread to find it, but if I am mistaken then it won't be the first time.
quote:


2. As an atheist I don't feel like I'm in a position to define what a twue Christian is. If someone like Thomas Jefferson says he's a Christian because he follows the moral philosophy of Christ but rejects all the supernatural claims, I'm willing to accept that. He is however using the label in a sense that can't be used interchangeably with someone that believes that Christ is god, doing so would be an equivocation fallacy. 

My definition of a Christian has nothing to do with me being an atheist, but comes from that fact that I used to be a Christian and I have formal education in comparative theology. Unlike you, I would say that Jefferson is not a Christian - I don't care what he calls himself - no more than someone who claims to reject Mohammed as Allah's prophet can be a Muslim.

At some point there may be enough critical mass of the philosophical followers of Christ to create a major rift within mainstream Christianity that would split the religion along sectarian lines much like Sunni and Shiite Islam. But as for today, I think majority belief defines the religion.



marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 3:57:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I have faith....I mean....reasonable belief and an expectation that it will continue!


But remember! Faith that doesn't question is dead faith.


You cannot prove this belief, therefore, you are not a reasonable thinker.

Atheist my ass!

You're a Christian!



Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 4:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Here's a definition for you: don't nobody know a gotdamn thing - those who think they do, call it faith.


Exactly.

And IMO this goes for both theists who believe there are gods and atheists who believe there are no gods.



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 6:54:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
As an atheist I don't feel like I'm in a position to define what a twue Christian is.

So how do you feel when it's done to you reverse?  I'm not just talking about strawman arguements.(Hope it's ok to ask)

I don't mind, I'm not certain I know what your looking for though. I've been told I'm not an atheist by theists when I didn't fit their definition of an atheist, that's not something that I mind, I'm not terribly attached to the label. If they will actually discuss what my position is as opposed to what they think it should be, that's great.

As for the looping arguments that go on, I kind of expect it. I understand that deconversion is a process that generally takes years and that explaining my position or pointing out the flaws in someone else's is never going to cause them to deconvert on the spot. The best case scenario is them pondering what I've said for quite some time and eventually accepting it. Even knowing that, the amount of disconnect in understand, not acceptance mind you just understanding where I'm coming from is rather baffling. Did that answer your question?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
Ok - I can dig that.  But is that weak/strong christianity (IYO) or do you (as an atheist) see all christianity as weak?

If that would be like claiming knowledge of god versus believing in god, because those positions certainly exist.



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/22/2010 7:08:01 PM)

:-)

[image]local://upfiles/718516/693571ADA08F490F84D9F2D6F3C9FA6E.gif[/image]



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