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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:36:34 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...

It pains me to give domi credit but he has pointed out that the concept of a deity gets a special exception that generally doesn't get granted to other concepts, for instance:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tinfoilhatman
I know I cannot prove nor disprove there are alien abductions, but believing that something is probing my anus gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer...


I expect that all of us can agree that one of these quotes is absurd, my question is how's the other any different?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:46:25 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
The point is you don't know what happens when we die... and I am not talking about humans, I am talking about all living matter. You have no more idea of what happens than a Christian does... science hasn't answered that question yet, and they may never answer it....

What about my computer? Where does the energy that powers it go when it's shut off? Have we answered that question?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:56:24 AM   
xssve


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Status: offline 		Those who have been arguing that religion is an example of an attempt to search for meaning, and explanatory narratives are correct - it gives organized religion itself no end of fits, because they second they "lay down the la" in terms of dogma, the peeps start making up new stuff - the majority of the Saints are pre-Christian god and demi-gods, Catholicism became syncretic out of necessity, taking bits and pieces of other religions and syncretizing them into Christianity: Christmas, Easter (the festival of Astarte, the Spring equinox), Halloween, etc., etc., the ritual of transubstantiation is lifted directly from Mithric rites.

In empirical terms, "the war" is about control over the narrative - over time, there has been a general consensus that, as slow and painstaking as it is, the empirical method itself is the only to know anything for sure, but it often conflicts with tribal narratives, and the entrenched interests that they often represent.

Similarly, politically, the trend of democracy is to enable free consensus formation and social mobility, since the alternative is typically an autocratic minority ruling by fiat - which describes theocracy, whereas both democracy and science are open to debate or question by anyone - but you do have to prove your point with respect to the empirical evidence.

Not a thing ecclesiastics, religious, political, or economic, often appreciate.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 8:58:24 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
The point is you don't know what happens when we die... and I am not talking about humans, I am talking about all living matter. You have no more idea of what happens than a Christian does... science hasn't answered that question yet, and they may never answer it....

What about my computer? Where does the energy that powers it go when it's shut off? Have we answered that question?
It goes around in circles in the grid until it dissipates as heat.


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 9:31:33 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
The point is you don't know what happens when we die... and I am not talking about humans, I am talking about all living matter. You have no more idea of what happens than a Christian does... science hasn't answered that question yet, and they may never answer it....

What about my computer? Where does the energy that powers it go when it's shut off? Have we answered that question?


Are you going to compare consciousness, or sentient awareness, to your computer?


I mean, if you want to think that it is the same thing, go you, I don't.... many scientists believe there is something special about awareness....

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 9:33:26 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I consider myself to be agnostic, I have a very loose definition of "god" or life after death, etc etc etc. I like to think I have a spiritual connection to something larger than myself. I have no religious affiliation, although I have said on this very thread Taoism is the closest I have come to one....

He is insulting people who do not want to commit to a belief or nonbelief as "fence sitters", why? He is at war obviously.... He is sooooo convinced he is calling out those with no belief one way or another in a ""god" because he has a "you are with me or against me" view of reality..... I don't embrace any one twue wayism... it goes against my grain, which is why I would make a great Taoist


I was not deprecating other forms of agnosticism, I was merely describing atheist philosophy in its proper context.  I am at peace, not war.  As I said, I'd be fine if the religious mainstream would just accept atheism as an equally silly philosophy. They are the ones at war.


I would be happier if everyone could respect each other.... and not try to sell them on the way they believe or ridicule others beliefs

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 9:44:19 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
How about saying...

"I know I cannot prove nor disprove there is a higher power out there, but believing in something larger than myself gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer... because while science might answer 'what' questions and some of the 'why' questions, it does not have the ability to answer the most important questions that I have about the meaning of life"...

It pains me to give domi credit but he has pointed out that the concept of a deity gets a special exception that generally doesn't get granted to other concepts, for instance:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tinfoilhatman
I know I cannot prove nor disprove there are alien abductions, but believing that something is probing my anus gives my life meaning and purpose that 'science' doesn't offer...


I expect that all of us can agree that one of these quotes is absurd, my question is how's the other any different?


Throughout human history people have believed in sacred things. They were willing to undergo pain, torture, they have altered states of consciousness when they relate to the sacred. These are real experiences. To negate the experiences of billions of human beings that have lived and died because you think that having spiritual experiences is nothing more than believing in spaghetti monsters is the epitome of arrogance... to compare your computer to human awareness is silliness...

Now, maybe you have never interacted with anything that gave you a sense of oneness with the universe. You don't feel particularly connected to anything else... perhaps you think you are born, eat, shit, and die and there is nothing else to it all.... some people FEEL something more.

Those feelings are important to them, they give their lives meaning.... I meditate. I hike to be closer to nature. I get a sense of feeling connected to something larger than myself. It isn't about EXPLAINING WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I DIE... it isn't about COMFORTING MYSELF.... it isn't about EXPLAINING WHY BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE... it is about feeling connected, being at peace, the oneness that I experience....

I don't care if there is a god, I don't care if there is life on other planets (although it is probable that there is life on other planets, intelligent or not), I don't care about explaining where I came from....But I also feel that there is a spiritual side to who I am...

Now dude, you wanna see yourself as the same decaying matter as everything else, right on! I think I am too, but I think that I am more than a meat suit.....

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 9:47:57 AM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		You want everyone to get along but you can't see how incredibly condescending what you just wrote was?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 9:50:50 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

In empirical terms, "the war" is about control over the narrative - over time, there has been a general consensus that, as slow and painstaking as it is, the empirical method itself is the only to know anything for sure, but it often conflicts with tribal narratives, and the entrenched interests that they often represent.


Narratives are always represented by the victors of the war... Like Pol Pot and Stalin had a narrative of Atheism they were selling..... just because there is no deity to fight over doesn't mean people stop fighting. To attribute war and conflict amongst humans to just religion is to be reductionist about the causes of conflict....If people aren't fighting over whose god is bigger they are fighting over which tax code to adopt (and it is usually about resources)

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:04:05 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

You want everyone to get along but you can't see how incredibly condescending what you just wrote was?


Um.... which part?

Let me put this in perspective for you...


I get that you have come to the conclusion that there is no way that god exists... I respect that...I feel that is a valid world view!

What I do not respect is when I am around some of my Atheist friends and the subject of any sort of religion comes up, they have to piss and shit all over it and make sure they sell you on their no-god reality....I have seen it many times. Because people know I am nonreligious they maybe they think their snarky commentary on others of faith won't bother me... but it does. It is like being around some nutjob with a sign telling me "Jesus Saves... repent now!"... same kinda creepy pushiness...

On average I get a lot more respect from religious people when I simply say "I am agnostic and I do not want to have this conversation about religion with you" than I have on average from Atheists... and I am talking about normal religious people, not Pat Robertson sorts....

Now that is my experience in this world, and what I see on religious threads on CM mimics what I have experienced in real life. I started a thread about time and human awareness, and because religious people commented on that thread, atheists storm trooped their way in belittling those of us trying to have a civil conversation... and now you are telling me I am condescending, well fuck, I wonder why

_____________________________

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:11:49 AM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		Granted arrogance is not a virtue.

How is being around a group of atheists expressing their attitudes any different than being around a group of christians doing the same?

You need to understand that the atheist is in fact an oppressed person in this culture and there is quite a growing resentment about it.  Rightfully so.

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/24/2010 10:14:11 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:18:58 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

How is being around a group of atheists expressing their attitudes any different than being around a group of christians doing the same?


In my circles when I tell a Christian I don't believe in the Bible they leave me alone about it. Are there threads on CM advocating people turn from Atheism to Christianity? I haven't seen those threads.... I have never seen a post from one person informing an Atheist they were going to hell for example.... and yet, I see people of faith ridiculed routinely here...



quote:

You need to understand that the atheist is in fact an oppressed person in this culture and there is quite a growing resentment about it. Rightfully so.


As an agnostic I do not feel oppressed....I wonder what makes you feel "oppressed"? I laugh at Christians that claim they are oppressed, and I kinda see no proof in my reality of any oppression because I lack faith...



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:32:30 AM   
Plasticine


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Status: offline 		Christians most certainly are not oppressed, they are dominant.

I am expected to keep my opinions of disbelief to myself while those around me make any statements of belief that they like.  That is oppression.

Every job I've had... people have religious symbols and phrases in their workspaces... and it is part of commonly acceptable office speech to make references to god and faith.

I didn't need to ask whether or not I could have a sign that said "God is highly improbable"... I have been expected to attend religiously themed parties and participate in events... I have had sales partners who would insist on driving and not listen to anything other than christian music on the way to calls, knowing full well I disagreed.  The whole fucking month of December is like living in North Korea for me.

People don't mistrust you if you say your agnostic... but an atheist, oh boy do people hate an atheist.  We have to listen to all that condescending crap about how maybe we've never had faith and our lives must be empty and meaningless, and how you all feel sorry for us.  Its bullshit plain and simple.

Atheism is not treated with the same respect or gravity that is given to any religious faith.  That is a fact.

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/24/2010 10:33:24 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:38:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Perhaps you also didn't notice that the source Tazzy quoted WITHOUT CITING had a statement that what she was quoting was ambiguous and should be changed.


Which was that? Or was it something i had already cited before?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:43:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Christians most certainly are not oppressed, they are dominant.

I am expected to keep my opinions of disbelief to myself while those around me make any statements of belief that they like.  That is oppression.

Kinda like some atheists tell religious people to STFU, and make all kinds of statements about how stoooopid they are.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Every job I've had... people have religious symbols and phrases in their workspaces... and it is part of commonly acceptable office speech to make references to god and faith.

I didn't need to ask whether or not I could have a sign that said "God is highly improbable"... I have been expected to attend religiously themed parties and participate in events... I have had sales partners who would insist on driving and not listen to anything other than christian music on the way to calls, knowing full well I disagreed.  The whole fucking month of December is like living in North Korea for me.

Then, perhaps, you aren't interested in accepting people how they are, and fail to see the positive aspects that the religious holidays bring to society.

I've been expected to attend non-religious themed parties and participate in events that I thought were wasteful, boring, and in support of stuff I really didn't care about ... but that's the cost of living with other people, yanno.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

People don't mistrust you if you say your agnostic... but an atheist, oh boy do people hate an atheist.  We have to listen to all that condescending crap about how maybe we've never had faith and our lives must be empty and meaningless, and how you all feel sorry for us.  Its bullshit plain and simple.

Defensive, any?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Atheism is not treated with the same respect or gravity that is given to any religious faith.  That is a fact.

And many atheists treat anything other than atheism with disrespect and contempt.

Tell me ... do you broadcast your BDSM beliefs to everyone that you meet, and then challenge them as "ignorant, closed-minded and stupid" if they don't agree with your lifestyle choices?  Or do you practice a little discretion?

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:45:23 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Christians most certainly are not oppressed, they are dominant.

I am expected to keep my opinions of disbelief to myself while those around me make any statements of belief that they like.  That is oppression.

Every job I've had... people have religious symbols and phrases in their workspaces... and it is part of commonly acceptable office speech to make references to god and faith.

I didn't need to ask whether or not I could have a sign that said "God is highly improbable"... I have been expected to attend religiously themed parties and participate in events... I have had sales partners who would insist on driving and not listen to anything other than christian music on the way to calls, knowing full well I disagreed.  The whole fucking month of December is like living in North Korea for me.

People don't mistrust you if you say your agnostic... but an atheist, oh boy do people hate an atheist.  We have to listen to all that condescending crap about how maybe we've never had faith and our lives must be empty and meaningless, and how you all feel sorry for us.  Its bullshit plain and simple.

Atheism is not treated with the same respect or gravity that is given to any religious faith.  That is a fact.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

I'll often say "Thank GOD I'm an atheist in the 21st Century where they can't kill us as they've done for so many centuries before."  That does sometimes make "them" think about it.  Yes, Plasticine, please feel free to make such a cubicle sign.  Let us know how that "goes."

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/24/2010 10:50:27 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:53:26 AM   
LanceHughes


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Status: offline 		Rule:  You do nothing but make Plasticine's point for him.  And you do it in a very snarky manner.  Back off, Mothrf***ker.  And just for the record, I know that's the first time I've ever used such language here and I think it's maybe the third or fourth time in my life.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:53:38 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Atheism is not treated with the same respect or gravity that is given to any religious faith.  That is a fact.

And many atheists treat anything other than atheism with disrespect and contempt.

Tell me ... do you broadcast your BDSM beliefs to everyone that you meet, and then challenge them as "ignorant, closed-minded and stupid" if they don't agree with your lifestyle choices?  Or do you practice a little discretion?

Firm


And that shows the amazing depth of the double standard. What would the christians say if someone compared their faith to a sexual lifestyle and urged them to use 'a little discretion' in in discussing their beliefs?

Why precisely is it ok for religious people to express their beliefs in public but not ok for an atheist to express his lack of belief?

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/24/2010 10:56:02 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:55:11 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I am expected to keep my opinions of disbelief to myself while those around me make any statements of belief that they like.  That is oppression.


You are? I haven't found that to be true in my life. If asked I tell people I am not a Christian. If not asked I don't volunteer that info usually... it really doesn't threaten me that other people believe things. Let's say I am at a table with people who need to pray before eating. I sit quietly while they do their thing. I don't join in... I mean what is the statement you need to make to people? I don't get it....



quote:

Every job I've had... people have religious symbols and phrases in their workspaces... and it is part of commonly acceptable office speech to make references to god and faith.


So you are offended by religion....Im not.... see I don't find religion offensive. I don't care. I wonder why you do....

I do not like it when coworkers have tried to coerce me into attending their church with them, and I make it clear that they have violated my boundary... but to be offended that they talk about a church activity or something, why? Why would I care? I mean that is like them getting pissed off if I talk about going to Las Vegas or something like that...



quote:

I didn't need to ask whether or not I could have a sign that said "God is highly improbable"... I have been expected to attend religiously themed parties and participate in events... I have had sales partners who would insist on driving and not listen to anything other than christian music on the way to calls, knowing full well I disagreed. The whole fucking month of December is like living in North Korea for me.


Me, I have good healthy boundaries. I expect other people to respect them. It is called communication. I have never been in the situation that I just told the person that I did not appreciate the religion stuff and then they respected that. You have a constitution right not to be discriminated against for your atheism, just as christians have the right not to be discriminated against... But frankly, I don't find religious symbols or parties offensive.... their existence does not threaten mine. I am not precluded from disbelief because others believe....


quote:

People don't mistrust you if you say your agnostic... but an atheist, oh boy do people hate an atheist. We have to listen to all that condescending crap about how maybe we've never had faith and our lives must be empty and meaningless, and how you all feel sorry for us. Its bullshit plain and simple.

Atheism is not treated with the same respect or gravity that is given to any religious faith. That is a fact.



I am one of those people that expects respect, it matters to me not what other people say and do in my presence. If you are looking for a reason to be offended, you will find it,... regardless of what you believe

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/24/2010 10:55:28 AM   
KITTYLECTRO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
The whole fucking month of December is like living in North Korea for me.

North Korea is essentially an 'irreligious' country which has a history of murdering Christians and other religious people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Religion

< Message edited by KITTYLECTRO -- 6/24/2010 10:58:34 AM >

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