RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/28/2010 3:11:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Taking your example, i can say that all atheists believe there is no god because a few who state they are atheists and believe such do exist. Is this really the way you want to go? You mean that isn't the way these threads normally go? LadyC: fair point.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 7:14:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Not different. religious faith is a subset of faith. I don't think that's the case, I'm under the impression that what happens in the brain is substantially different.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 7:39:10 AM)
quote: I don't think that's the case, I'm under the impression that what happens in the brain is substantially different. Steel, i cant help what you believe, which is what you just stated... that you dont believe that is the case. That is, of course, your belief. Oddly enough, someone mentioned on the thread about disbelievers ... Thank you Jeff... quote: Yes, lets ask the Christians about The Muslims about The Jews about the Hindus.... about narrow-mindedness. .... And thats when it seemed to click. You dont know anything more about my belief than i know about your ... disbelief... which isnt the correct term but you get my drift... actually, you dont have a term... so its the closet i can come too. I have tried very hard not to judge you. Merely to try and come up with working definitions. Yet you continue to judge me all the same. My definitions are simple, effective, and within the scope of non-religious use, yet you have fought hard to keep them from being used. I have asked why. I have yet to get a clear answer. That strikes me as rather peculiar.... one of those "hmmm" moments. I can attest for the fact that believers are tired of being told what to believe by people who claim to have no working understanding of their position. And before the argument returns back to organized religion making determing what we believe, i think enough of us have spoken out stating we dont follow an organized religion to make that statement inaccurate, at least on these boards. I also find it interesting that so many have decided that Marini's post about narrowmindedness was posted with an eye to incite, yet your thread went beneath the radar. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and stop the flaming and resentment on these boards by ending such posts as this one and Marini's. They benefit no one, are used to simply start an argument, not a debate, and foster hard feelings from one group or the other. Then again, depends on what your aim is. I rarely see anyone post a thread promoting any religion. I do often see threads promoting atheism.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 7:46:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron True. But there is very little difference between having faith in your partners fidelity (which you cannot see) and having faith in a deity (which you also cannot see). I'm under the impression that there is a difference, they certainly are different definitions of the word according to your quote and as such using them interchangably would be an equivocation fallacy. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron In fact one could pose the argument that your "confidence or trust" that there is no God takes the same kind of faith as a God believers "confidence or trust" that there is a God. People commonly do pose that argument to atheists and it's often a straw man because the poser has to give his opposition that position of confidence in order to make it. Furthermore, even if Moonhead did take that position, I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron FAITH *–noun...* When quoting could you please cite your source.

mnottertail -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 7:56:12 AM)
Strawman! There's a place you can go! I said Strawman! When you're short of a soul! You can pray there, and praise the big guy! Its fun to kneel at the INRI! Its fun to kneel at the INRI!

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 8:52:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl No, not Belief... belief... as in the belief that i have my keys in my pocket... Unless you are mentally impaired and there is some question that your keys might be elsewhere, "belief" is an inappropriate word.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 8:54:04 AM)
As i have stated i often forget my keys, i do believe i used the word appropriately.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 8:57:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As i have stated i often forget my keys, i do believe i used the word appropriately. No you still havent. It is not a matter for belief, it is a matter for recollection and that failing, search. "Belief" doesnt further your search for your keys.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:01:50 AM)
~sighs quote: confidence or trust in a person or thing As far as my keys, i have no confidence or trust, therefore no faith, that i know where they are. Its a lack of faith in myself that i can remember what i do with them once i get home. I am using the word quite appropriately, no matter how much you wish to argue otherwise. Im not going through this again. Just because you wish to reedfine words that have been in use for longer than both of us have been alive doesnt change the meaning of said words. I have spoken my peace on this topic.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:23:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~sighs quote: confidence or trust in a person or thing As far as my keys, i have no confidence or trust, therefore no faith, that i know where they are. Its a lack of faith in myself that i can remember what i do with them once i get home. I am using the word quite appropriately, no matter how much you wish to argue otherwise. Im not going through this again. Just because you wish to reedfine words that have been in use for longer than both of us have been alive doesnt change the meaning of said words. I have spoken my peace on this topic. Youre doing the redefining in some vain attempt to pigeonhole atheists. Not even a good try.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:32:06 AM)
quote: Youre doing the redefining in some vain attempt to pigeonhole atheists. Not even a good try. I will respond to your innaccurate accusation. There was no attempt to pidgeon hole anyone. I even agreed atheists have and hold no religious faith or belief. I do believe they do hold other forms of faiths or beliefs. One even mentioned a "rational operating belief" as his style.... still a belief, reational or not, which has nothing to do with religion. So, if you gain a feeling that i am trying to pidgeon hole someone based upon that, you have more problems that can be addressed on this thread.

Owner59 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:34:03 AM)
Well put,tazzygirl.

LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 10:29:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel I'm under the impression that there is a difference, they certainly are different definitions of the word according to your quote and as such using them interchangably would be an equivocation fallacy. There are different definitions but the spirit of each definition is still based upon what one believes People commonly do pose that argument to atheists and it's often a straw man because the poser has to give his opposition that position of confidence in order to make it. Furthermore, even if Moonhead did take that position, I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home. I don’t need to give anyone that position of confidence because if you call yourself an atheist you have given me a word that by definition is a statement of your basic belief about a higher power: That you believe there is none. a·the·ist http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist *–noun* a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs. A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief) that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that. The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief. The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power. When quoting could you please cite your source. FAITH- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith *–noun...*

vincentML -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 11:52:58 AM)
quote: No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs. A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief) that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that. The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief. The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power. As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread. [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] [sm=diethreaddie.gif]

LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 12:11:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread. [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] [sm=diethreaddie.gif] I never called them the same thing. I called them equal and opposite. A belief is what you hold to be true. Saying you don't believe in something is still stating your belief about it. If the dark disagrees that is good for her. But whatever you believe or hold to be true is a belief for you. Example: "I hold this to be true: there is no God" un·be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unbelief *–noun* the state or quality of not believing; incredulity or skepticism, esp. in matters of doctrine or religious faith. be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief *–noun* 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief. 3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief. here is an example of each one of these in the context of atheism. 1. I believe there is no God 2. The notion of a higher Power is unworthy of my belief 3. I have a solid belief that there is no God. 4. My personal belief is that God does not exist.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 12:15:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread. [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif] [sm=diethreaddie.gif] I never called them the same thing. I called them equal and opposite. A belief is what you hold to be true. Saying you don't believe in something is still stating your belief about it. If the dark disagrees that is good for her. But whatever you believe or hold to be true is a belief for you. Example: "I hold this to be true: there is no God" un·be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unbelief *–noun* the state or quality of not believing; incredulity or skepticism, esp. in matters of doctrine or religious faith. be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief *–noun* 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief. 3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief. here is an example of each one of these in the context of atheism. 1. I believe there is no God 2. The notion of a higher Power is unworthy of my belief 3. I have a solid belief that there is no God. 4. My personal belief is that God does not exist. But you left out the one that forms the majority of atheists positions: There is no evidence of god. No need for "belief"

mnottertail -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 12:16:04 PM)
moving the method of negation around nullifies it. I do not belive there is a god.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 12:31:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl No, not Belief... belief... Um, I capitalized belief because it was the first word in a sentence. While I'm not above giving the English language a slap in the face every now and then, I'm not willing to leave it for dead by the side of the road. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl as in the belief that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no faith... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys. And both of these can be considered with a view of trust or lack of. Even in your sentence these words aren't just other words for trust, they can't be used interchangeably. If they were I should be able to exchange them and the sentence would still make sense: quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl as in the trust that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no trust... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys.

Moonhead -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 12:40:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Strawman! There's a place you can go! I said Strawman! When you're short of a soul! You can pray there, and praise the big guy! Its fun to kneel at the INRI! Its fun to kneel at the INRI! I hate to spoil your rather fine joke, but there's a pretty decent Lou Reed song of that title, isn't there?

GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 1:03:10 PM)
Would you mind terribly not including your words in a quote attributed to me. I get that your trying to do your response in red which is a bit of a pain in the ass to respond to but would still be fine if you weren't messing up and responding to me in black as well. This for instance this comes off as being attributed to me and that's not cool. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel a·the·ist http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist *–noun* a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Also I asked why people felt it was ok to tell me my position in the original post: quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? It certainly wouldn't be for any other group. For instance it would be ridiculous for me to say to a Christian no, no, no that's not your position; you believe that: The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV *You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV How does doing this to an atheist make it any different?

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