RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:19:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No, not Belief... belief...

Um, I capitalized belief because it was the first word in a sentence. While I'm not above giving the English language a slap in the face every now and then, I'm not willing to leave it for dead by the side of the road.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
as in the belief that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no faith... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys.

And both of these can be considered with a view of trust or lack of.

Even in your sentence these words aren't just other words for trust, they can't be used interchangeably. If they were I should be able to exchange them and the sentence would still make sense:
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
 as in the trust that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no trust... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys.







That sentence still makes sense.

I dont have trust that i have my keys.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:23:08 PM)

quote:

Um, I capitalized belief because it was the first word in a sentence. While I'm not above giving the English language a slap in the face every now and then, I'm not willing to leave it for dead by the side of the road.


And i capitalized them not because you did, but because i wanted to point out the difference in the terms and how they are used. Belief/Faith... little to no proof required to have. belief/faith can and often are based upon past experiences.

Didnt have a damn thing to do with the english language and how you capped it.



GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:26:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've defined my position multiple times in this thread and in other threads and not only do people I'm talking to in the thread not know what it is, they keep telling me that it's something else. It's not like my position is unique, it's quite common among atheists.

Damn. I hate it when people do that. I would just end the discussion with people who I think are trying to do that to me.


You don't say......

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
I don’t need to give anyone that position of confidence because if you call yourself an atheist you have given me a word that by definition is a statement of your basic belief about a higher power: That you believe there is none.
a·the·ist     http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs.  A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief)  that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that.
The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief.  The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power. 




LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:32:38 PM)

OMG I googled Jesusist and the word Jesusism came up in anarchopedia and it talks about being a Jesusist!! http://eng.anarchopedia.org/Jesusism  AND My jesusist blog is like the only hit you will get on the word Jesusist. [sm=banana.gif]According to the very short article in Anarchopedia the word was first used in 1914 in a book called
The Naked Truth of Jesusism from Oriental Manuscripts  by Lynn Fairbanks George. 
 
See that?....NAKED.....I knew this was the right label for me[:D]
 
I've got to find a copy of that book.



LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:35:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I've defined my position multiple times in this thread and in other threads and not only do people I'm talking to in the thread not know what it is, they keep telling me that it's something else. It's not like my position is unique, it's quite common among atheists.

Damn. I hate it when people do that. I would just end the discussion with people who I think are trying to do that to me.


You don't say......

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
I don’t need to give anyone that position of confidence because if you call yourself an atheist you have given me a word that by definition is a statement of your basic belief about a higher power: That you believe there is none.
a·the·ist     http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs.  A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief)  that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that.
The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief.  The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power. 




On the contrary....I DO say.  [;)]



marie2 -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:36:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
But this is about being an atheist. There is only one definition for the word.

False:

http://www.leoyan.com/century-dictionary.com/cent2jpgframes.php?volno=01&page=0362
Atheism according to century dictionary has the following definitions:
  • The doctrine that there is no God; denial of the existence of God.
  • The denial of theism, that is, of the doctrine that the great first cause is a supreme, intelligent, righteous person.
  • A practical indifference to and disregard of God; godlessness. [In the first sense above given, atheism is to be discriminated from pantheism, which denies the personality of God, and from agnosticism, which denies the possibility of positive knowledge concerning him. In the second sense, atheism includes both pantheism and agnosticism.
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheism?rdfrom=Atheism
    Noun Singular
    atheism
    Plural
    atheisms atheism (plural atheisms)
    1. Absence of, or rejection of, belief in the existence of a god or gods.
    2. The stance that a deity or deities do not exist.

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/atheism

    athe·ism (ā′t̸hē iz′əm)noun
  • the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist
  • godlessness
    http://www.ultralingua.com/onlinedictionary/index.html?service=ee&text=

    atheism n. ['eɪθiːˌɪzəm]
  • 1. A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
  • 2. The doctrine or belief that there is no God; Synonyms: godlessness. Etymology Cf. French athéisme. Related to Atheist.


    http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=atheism
    • noun:   a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
    • noun:   the doctrine or belief that there is no God

    http://www.iep.utm.edu/atheism/
    Atheism The term “atheist” describes a person who does not believe that God or a divine being exists.  Worldwide there may be as many as a billion atheists, although social stigma, political pressure, and intolerance make accurate polling difficult. For the most part, atheists have presumed that the most reasonable conclusions are the ones that have the best evidential support.... 





    • They all mean the same thing. Someone who doubts there is a god, disbelieves there is a god, thinks there is no God, believes a god doesnt exist. Pick the wording of your choice, they're all saying the same thing.

    You're an atheist but you're a certain kind of atheist? You're an atheist who may have your own thought process that brought to the fact that you are an atheist, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word atheist....it only changes the route taken to get there. Remember your argument that atheism is such a non-belief that it doesnt even qualify as a belief. But now you demand subsets for your non-belief? You can't have it both ways.


    I have tried my ass off to understand where you are coming from but it's becoming impossible. An atheist is someone who doubts there is a god, or disbelieves that there is a god, or thinks that there is no god, if that word is preferable. How a person reaches that opinion and why they choose to hold that opinion, is another story, and it does not change the definition of the word atheist.

    I am done pandering to this insanity.



    seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:40:51 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
    Actually I can call myself anything I want to no matter what definition you found.

    Then shouldn't I be allowed to do the same?



    Yes, you should be able to call yourself anything you like ....

    then too ...

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel
    *The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV
    *Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV
    *You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV


    This sounds like you have been into my acid!


    [sm=anger.gif]






    [sm=anger.gif] [sm=anger.gif] [sm=anger.gif] [sm=anger.gif] [sm=anger.gif]

    Had to do that again ... it is so ... 4th of July like ...



    LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:44:42 PM)

    I have really enjoyed this thread.  Thank you again for starting it GotSteel. [:)]
    BTW- If you need some help coming up with a label for yourself, I'm pretty good with words, so I would be more than happy to help you out. Just let me know.

    Peace.



    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 9:59:33 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
    And i capitalized them not because you did, but because i wanted to point out the difference in the terms and how they are used. Belief/Faith... little to no proof required to have. belief/faith can and often are based upon past experiences.

    1. Since you've explained your non standard use of capitals I can follow what your doing but I'm not willing to maim my English in the same way. Especially since okcupid.com tells me that doing so and using switchy speak are the worst possible things I can do on a dating site.

    2. Lets recap you've used these words interchangably: belief, faith, trust and impression. I also think your key example would make recollection synonymous with these terms. The way you are defining these terms makes them more ambiguous then I previously deemed possible, I'm not willing to play that shell game. You can use them that way if you want and I'll do my best to figure out what you're saying but you can't expect me to join you in using the words this way.



    tazzygirl -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 10:07:45 PM)

    Steel, no one is maiming the english language. But i do recognize your problem and i truly feel for you. To be that afraid of a few words... well... i cant imagine.

    But, the thread is yours. thank you for the lovely debate.



    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 10:47:31 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
    To be that afraid of a few words... well... i cant imagine.

    Going for the ad hominem attack when the equivocation fallacy didn't work [8|]



    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 10:53:15 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: marie2
    They all mean the same thing. Someone who doubts there is a god, disbelieves there is a god, thinks there is no God, believes a god doesnt exist. Pick the wording of your choice, they're all saying the same thing.

    No they are not all saying the same thing. If you review how dictionaries work, you will find that the numbers before the multiple definitions mean that they are different.

    I'm an atheist under certain definitions of the word and not others as are many atheists, definitions which are not interchangeable. Could it be that you're having trouble understanding the distinction in these different definitions because you are using words in the definitions interchangeably that the definitions don't mean to be synonymous?

    That's all I can think of, from where I'm standing it shouldn't be hard to understand the distinction between a lack of belief and a positive belief that something doesn't exist.




    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 11:05:43 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel
    I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home.

    I promised you a study on how a belief and the rejection of a belief are not the same thing in the brain, here it is:

    http://www.samharris.org/images/uploads/Harris_Sheth_Cohen.pdf





    LadyCimarron -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/29/2010 11:24:53 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel
    I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home.

    I promised you a study on how a belief and the rejection of a belief are not the same thing in the brain, here it is:

    http://www.samharris.org/images/uploads/Harris_Sheth_Cohen.pdf



    Thank you very much. I will look it over when I have a chance.



    Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 1:18:09 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel
    Going for the ad hominem attack when the equivocation fallacy didn't work [8|]



    For someone who uses the word "fallacy" more than Aristotle himself, you really miss an obvious one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

    To summarize, "lol fallacy" is not a way to win an argument, it's just a way to end one.



    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 4:33:45 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Elisabella
    For someone who uses the word "fallacy" more than Aristotle himself, you really miss an obvious one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

    To summarize, "lol fallacy" is not a way to win an argument, it's just a way to end one.

    No, I'm aware of it, how does it apply, what's your point?



    Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 6:29:11 AM)

    My point is that you spend more time pointing out fallacious logic and retaliating against snarky strawmans with snarky strawmans of your own than you do making any sort of genuine point.



    GotSteel -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 4:24:24 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Elisabella
    My point is that you spend more time pointing out fallacious logic and retaliating against snarky strawmans with snarky strawmans of your own than you do making any sort of genuine point.

    That isn't an argument from fallacy but I agree with what you're saying in this post, except for your use of the word genuine. The points I've been making in this thread are genuine, the word I'd use for them is remedial. Yeah, they are very basic points that I learned in middle school and I shouldn't have to spend time on. But I end up spending time on this remedial crap because too many people around here don't seem to know how to put together a valid argument.



    Elisabella -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 4:33:12 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: GotSteel
    That isn't an argument from fallacy but I agree with what you're saying in this post, except for your use of the word genuine. The points I've been making in this thread are genuine, the word I'd use for them is remedial. Yeah, they are very basic points that I learned in middle school and I shouldn't have to spend time on. But I end up spending time on this remedial crap because too many people around here don't seem to know how to put together a valid argument.


    Fair enough, that last post just really annoyed me so I commented on it [8D]



    Plasticine -> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? (6/30/2010 6:33:09 PM)

    Wow... didn't I win this thread like last week? [8D]



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