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Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:09:51 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		A friend and I were discussing how someone could be made to prove who they are online. My answer for some time has been to invest at least some time, gain trust, talk on the phone, and then STILL require a scan or copy of photo ID like a driver's license (or an exchange of such). Of course, people raise the issue of fake ID (photoshopped) or even "identity theft" but I have previously felt that the driver's license provides a lot of good info, a photo, and a number - all of which is generally useless for identity theft.

Or is it?

I am not a complete bonehead, so I have looked at sites like these before:
http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs17-it.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_theft

I guess I just fail to see how static pieces of information like a person's name, date of birth, address, and a driver's license number allow someone to gain access to further information. What do they do? Even if someone obtains a copy of the actual driver's license through some simple applications or some form of social engineering all they gain access to is what is presumably listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stripe

Most of that information I would actually reveal conversationally to someone of trust and I can't see the resistance to sharing it out to a special person. But still my brain puzzles over what could be done with the ID number itself. Should people resist sharing that number for some reason? Is it made more dangerous given the other info available on the ID? How little information is needed to run background checks and gain other info by electronic or databased means? Can someone usually obtain the Social Security number of someone by just having the other information first (this presumes the ID number is not the SS# itself)?

I guess ultimately my question is sort of a DIY identity theft question because it is only by understanding what someone can do with the number and general info on a state issued ID that one can then understand the reasons not to give out such information; alternately, maybe nothing can be done with such info and giving it out to a prospective partner is a reasonable thing to do given a reasonable amount of trust exists with that person already.

FWIW, my friend actually wants to be able to simply require such ID up front because she's tired of the time wasters found here and elsewhere. Should such information be shared casually? What if the ID number was covered up by tape or something, does that improve the situation? Why or why not?

I would personally prefer this thread didn't become the usual discussion about Tall, Dark, and whatever's attempt to sell his online verification service. The problem there is that you still have to trust the service itself absent any independent oversight or known basis for trusting it. I am sure there are other issues also and I just don't see how one gains anything by throwing another layer onto the problem. So let's just not go there.

I am certainly open to other suggestions about how to prove who one is online. Again, the presumption here is that there is a real interest in gaining a person's trust and that the person is not just a random stranger per se.


< Message edited by Chaingang -- 4/13/2006 6:11:36 AM >

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:30:46 AM   
EatUs


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/18/2006
Status: offline 		What I do as a verification is webcam or a digital photo of them with: "(screenname) @ (so so site) is REAL for (your screenname)". It'd be harder for them to fake that or photoshop it..as usually the fake pictures are of random folks on the internet, or they are of their friends/girlfriends/boyfriends/husbands/wives/whatever and that person would probably be a bit concerned if they wanted their friend(and all that jazz) to hold a sign like that just for verification.

My friend had a problem with this, as she only saw some pictures of her "Master", and then flew from Cali to Florida and found out the guy in the photo was COMPLETELY different from the "Master" she saw before her.

Doing a phone conversation at first is a good idea, but anyone can be a voice. Try getting them to do a voice/video conference on an IM service, or get them to show you their webcam and talk on the phone.
If they claim to not have one, offer choices like the digital picture. If they claim to not have that, then it's probably fake.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:37:58 AM   
Happilymarried


Posts: 9
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline 		You could always ask them to take a picture of themselves holding something like a newspaper, rose, or something.  I doubt many people would have random pictures of people holding a newspaper.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:39:48 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		That's good, and certainly better than nothing at all. I would think that they should hold a handwritten sign indicating your suggested info. But they could still fake plenty of other things if they are good at deception - gender/sex for example. An elbows and above shot doesn't reveal the last officially known weight or height as on an ID.

But yeah, that's a good generic suggestion for first time assurances. Personally, I'd have to go the digital photo route because I don't have a cam nor do I want one, but I do have a digital camera.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:43:23 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Like an orgasm- if someone has enough motivation, there's no infallible way to prove someone is not who they say they are.  Even webcams just show the person, not the life.

At some point you go beyond the point of reasonability- you're SO worried about them being honest, but not worried enough to actually just start meeting offline???  At what point can you trust your own judgement and adult life skills that allow you to function?  If someone felt they had to go to such great lengths to prove I am who I am, rather than just coming to meet me or me going to them, I really wouldn't want to start anything with them anyway.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:51:42 AM   
TacomaCpl


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/31/2006
From: Tacoma, WA
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

That's good, and certainly better than nothing at all. I would think that they should hold a handwritten sign indicating your suggested info. But they could still fake plenty of other things if they are good at deception - gender/sex for example. An elbows and above shot doesn't reveal the last officially known weight or height as on an ID.

But yeah, that's a good generic suggestion for first time assurances. Personally, I'd have to go the digital photo route because I don't have a cam nor do I want one, but I do have a digital camera.


We've found that the webcam is actually one of th best ways to validate who one is. We've run across so many players that send "nice" pictures (apparent studio shots mixed in with supposedly natural shots) and never want to go near a webcam. Can't hide from the webcam. Second would be the custom signage idea with the digital camera, but for the fastest and most effective way to validate...the webcam.  The minute anyone who talks to Us asks to see Us on the webcam, we tell them that We're willing if they are. That usually ends it with the players. So far, we've only met one potential candidate who readily fired up her webcam to validate who she was. We gained more respect for her as one who is searching for a lifestyle goal in a few minutes of that than it would have if she hadn't turned the cam on.  It's too bad for both her and Us that it wasn't a match.


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TacomaCpl

quote:

Look at what you have; look at what you want.
Fix what you have in such a way as to get what you want
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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 6:54:25 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I assume that doesn't apply long distance, because that's when such proof probably matters most. I agree that shorter distances are easy enough to bridge by way of meeting over coffee somewhere. But it could still be a time waster.

I would think a Pro would be interested in some manner of proof up front, LA...

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 7:01:35 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		My personal focus is getting others to prove who they are and sometimes connection speeds are an issue. Are cams useful over dial-up connections? I am just trying to look at the lowest common denominator there.

I don't have a cam but I don't personally have an enormous objection to one either. I can see where such interactions allow for real time info gathering. The person has to respond to any inquiry or suggestion almost instantaneously.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 7:05:00 AM   
TacomaCpl


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/31/2006
From: Tacoma, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

My personal focus is getting others to prove who they are and sometimes connection speeds are an issue. Are cams useful over dial-up connections? I am just trying to look at the lowest common denominator there.

I don't have a cam but I don't personally have an enormous objection to one either. I can see where such interactions allow for real time info gathering. The person has to respond to any inquiry or suggestion almost instantaneously.


Webcams work sufficiently well over dialup to validate who a person is and make a comparison between a profile photo and/or a photo that has been sent. It's not that We want them to keep it on the whole time we chat once validation is completed, We just want to make sure we're not headed in the "getting played again" direction. If they don't understand that, they're a player and again, off they go into their own little cyberworld.  That's just how We're seeing things, though. Could be a bit skewed.


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TacomaCpl

quote:

Look at what you have; look at what you want.
Fix what you have in such a way as to get what you want
Robert L. Roberts, 1979

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 7:31:35 AM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline 		Webcams work for me. The picture holding a sign thing is good and I've done it.
Most of this doesn't apply a whole lot to me though because I stick with folks who are within a 2 - 3 hour drive. We meet for dinner at a public place, or we meet at a park, or whatnot. 

I would never send someone a copy of my driver's lisence. If they need that for some reason, I'd probably just quit conversing. Different states put different things on there anyway. I know that mine has my SS# on it, and often the last 4 digits of someone's SS# is used as their password or PIN for different things. It also doesn't reflect jack about my stats. When I went in, they ASKED me my eyecolor, weight, height, etc... and just wrote down what I told them. It also has my home address on it and that's not something I'm willing to reveal to someone until I have already met them in person at least twice. If webcams, phonecalls, and picture trading isn't enough for someone to meet me in person, they probably have issues more significant than I care to deal with anyway.

As for Pro's wanting more ID... when I Pro'ed, I never required this info. Most of the time, I never even knew their last name, and didn't want to. Payments were made in cash and no receipt was rendered. Some of my clientelle required a high level of discretion due to their professions and asking them to start ponying up personal info was neither necessary, nor "customer-friendly". If one of them ever faced charges for whatever scandal down the road, I could honesty say "I don't know a Mr. Jones".

On a side note:
I notice in your original post that you quote wikipedia a lot. I'd caution against using wikipedia as any kind of reliable source of information because it's just written by a bunch of internet users who may (but probably don't) have any expertise in a particular area. It's best left as just a resource to find out general, non-specific info on a subject one might be clueless about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction   <--- explains how any Joe Schmoe can edit any article in wiki.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 7:49:21 AM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		I send a copy of my police records with all of my photo's, upon request.
No wonder no one responds back?

Aquitted!   Kevin

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 8:48:04 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix
On a side note:
I notice in your original post that you quote wikipedia a lot. I'd caution against using wikipedia as any kind of reliable source of information because it's just written by a bunch of internet users who may (but probably don't) have any expertise in a particular area. It's best left as just a resource to find out general, non-specific info on a subject one might be clueless about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction   <--- explains how any Joe Schmoe can edit any article in wiki.


That's not quite accurate. There is an oversight process and the objectivity of articles can be contested. We can let it go at that.

I don't actually believe there is a final source for anything really. It's all a work in progress. There are no authorities that could or should be relied upon.

I would easily trust a wiki article as much as I would a newspaper article or the Encyclopedia Britannica for general info.


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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 9:00:43 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Not sure what it is like in the US, but from my point of view and knowledge, it is relitively easy to obtain genuine Drivers Licences and Passports in a variety of names, not just here but in most countries.. (Guess you may need the connections though). However Chaingang is right with the point regarding Identy Theft. It is a problem and is growing.  I'll talk to people on YM and phone and get a general sence of them and if we have mutiual acquaintances, this helps. Otherwise, I prefer the face to face coffee meet which I can always work around a trip out anyway, especially when i choose an oudside forum so Sasha (our malamute) can come along for an outinmg and [potential people can pass the "Sasha Test" (Sasha is First bitch and they don't pass her test they don't go any further). Failing that, I do suggest the monthly Munch which we often attend so we can meet in a great environment. We're easy to check out and often people who just want to meet us will visit our hiome accompanied by a mutual friend.. I have my own ways of checking the other person out. 

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/13/2006 9:02:09 AM >

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 9:05:17 AM   
TacomaCpl


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/31/2006
From: Tacoma, WA
Status: offline 		We've pretty much smoothed it out with the webcam or photo holding a specific message. We've had attitude from some when we request this, but...ya know..that spells player to Us and someone isn't serious.  Just Our opinion. Probably heavily biased from Our past experiences.




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TacomaCpl

quote:

Look at what you have; look at what you want.
Fix what you have in such a way as to get what you want
Robert L. Roberts, 1979

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 9:17:02 AM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline 		I have always found that face to face works the best  We make it a point to only play with those whom we have met through munches, parties, etc; so it matters little to me how someone wants to portray themselves on the computer. 
Since I know that many use online as the first means of communication though, I would have to say a web cam is the best way to go to verifying if someone is who they say or not.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 10:12:26 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


I would never send someone a copy of my driver's lisence.


Total agreement with this one. No way in hell I'd send my DL out to someone to 'prove' to someone else who's only on the net that I am who I say I am. I'm more than willing to turn on the webcam though as long as I'm not asked to 'perform' which is most often the case.

Celeste

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 10:17:03 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		You bring up some very good points---the ID check is only good IF the person has done something to warrant being noted in the records and most of the time that means somekind of moving violation or arrest record---and that isn't too peachy--I was a victim not of identity theft but AMEX theft, I no longer do any online purchasing of any kind and I've had no problems---but it is nearly impossible to detect in the first stages if someone online is real---that's why I use many means to uncover them, unfortunately it has become the case of you are guilty until you prove you aren't--sad but true.

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 10:51:15 AM   
OneX2


Posts: 157
Joined: 1/3/2006
Status: offline 		Another question I am now curious about is, if your good enough to get complete info on someone and make awsome photo id's, what is there to stop you from fooling the id service? I imagine there are many different levels to these thefts, but I never see that addressed. I know of people who fooled the DMV. How much more difficult could it be?

Joseph

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 12:45:26 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		There is no "safe" way to prove who you are, because as soon as you reveal your identity to someone, that person can use the information in ways to hurt you.  There are steps you can take to minimize risk, but you have to take SOME risk if you are going to meet someone.

I also have never understood why knowing information about someone is taken as a good way to avoid a bad experience.  Most rape victims know their assailant.  You can know everything there is to know about a person, and still end up in a situation you regret. 

Another thing people tend to forget: meeting people through the internet is RELATIVELY safe (much safer than meeting people in bars, at any rate), because if anything terrible really does happen, it's not very hard for law-enforcement to piece together who harmed you.  Serial killers and serial rapists do not last long on the internet.  They don't like to have their tracks exposed.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 4/13/2006 12:48:32 PM >

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RE: Is there a safe and easy way to prove who you are? - 4/13/2006 1:21:58 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		i am generally open about my contact information (name, address, etc.) because i am a freelance webdesigner and i make a lot of contacts through the internet. my dad (he passed away recently) was also very open with his name and address, because he ran a nonprofit history project and did a lot of networking through his website. i've only once been asked to "prove" my identity, but it was easy to do so through that connection as well as a few trip pictures on others' websites that i am in. i don't have a webcam so it's hard for me to "prove" in that way. i guess it depends on what you mean by safe and easy. to me, it's nothing to give out my name and address to business contacts and to personal contacts i wish to, but a lot of people are squeamish about that and don't consider it safe OR easy. on the other hand, it's not easy for me to go on webcam, because i don't have one, and i really don't consider giving out copies of one's drivers' license or any other personal document to be particularly safe. it's far too simple for someone to copy your drivers license # or passport # off of an image of it you send to them.


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