RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 7:55:39 AM)

The Gospel According to Ian:

Hymn 43
Oh father high in heaven - smile down upon your son
whose busy with his money games - his women and his gun.
Oh Jesus save me!
And the unsung Western hero killed an Indian or three
and made his name in Hollywood
to set the white man free.
Oh Jesus save me!
If Jesus saves - well, He'd better save Himself
from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death. Oh Jesus save me!
I saw him in the city and on the mountains of the moon
His cross was rather bloody
He could hardly roll His stone.
Oh Jesus save me!



Moonhead -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 7:58:35 AM)

"I told the priest, don't pray for any second coming,
"God got his ass kicked the last time he came down here slumming..."



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 8:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML



Excellent and challenging answer, Lady C, but isn't it true that the underlying premise of Jesus' preaching was that the End of Days was near, that the Son of Man (ala the Book of Daniel) would establish a new kingdom on earth and that this would occur within the lifetime of his Disciples, and did he not urge his Disciples to leave (abandon) their families and follow him? So, wasn't his message predicated upon the nutsoid notion that in the new earthly kingdom people would have no disease or hunger and consequently wealth would be useless?

Not the end is near, but the Kingdom is at Hand.  He told his disciples that no one, not even Him knew when the End would come. Matt 24:36.  He DID estalish a new Kingdom.  His disciplies didn't pay close enough attention. He told them not to believe anyone who said the kingdom was a PLACE he said his  kingdom was inside of us.
 
Luke 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
 
And no, he never promised there would be no disease or hunger or poverty. on the contrary he told his disciples "the poor you have always" Matt 26:11, Mark 14:7, John 12:8

And is it not true that as a consequence for preaching the imminent establishment of a new kingdom he was seditious to the Roman rule and executed on that basis? In other words was it not his nominal threat to Empire and not his radicalism in embracing of the poor nor of his contempt for the money changers that was a step over the line?

His death was a joint effort between Jewish religious leaders and the Roman rule.
 
Luke 22:5252Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?

These were Jewish religious leaders who came to arrest Jesus. The religious leaders brought false charges against him to the Roman ruler and accused him of trying to overthrow the Empire because they were angry about his radical ministry to the poor.

LUKE 23:1,2
And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.



You know, my scriptural knowledge surprises even me. 
Maybe this is why Jehovah's Witnesses never come to my house twice.



DarlingSavage -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 8:07:24 AM)

Jesus saves, but George Nelson withdraws!



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 8:38:00 AM)

What's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
.........

You only need one nail to hang a picture of Jesus. [;)]



DarlingSavage -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 8:54:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

What's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
.........

You only need one nail to hang a picture of Jesus. [;)]


I have no idea, since you're the one that was posting the shroud or Turin.



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 8:57:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

What's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
.........

You only need one nail to hang a picture of Jesus. [;)]


I have no idea, since you're the one that was posting the shroud or Turin.



[:D][:D]I knew you would get the connection. lol



GotSteel -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/28/2010 11:30:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
There is "a power, a force, a  SUPREME BEING/or BEINGS" so much greater than man, it is hard for a human brain to understand how great GODDESS is, much less even attempt to understand how the GODDESS thinks.

Lately, I don't find too much more amusing than pea brains that even think they could POSSIBLY have the brain matter, in their mere mortal/flea brains to have any idea how our CREATOR/GODDESS thinks.

If you have a flea brain how were you able to determine that the "GODDESS" is great at all?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
It is great to be a "Believer", I can't imagine living my life as a non-Believer.

You might find that being a nontheist was better, many people have. Considering your use of phrases such as "mere mortal/flea brains" I suspect that it would give you a healthier self image.



vincentML -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/29/2010 11:34:01 AM)

quote:

Not the end is near, but the Kingdom is at Hand. He told his disciples that no one, not even Him knew when the End would come. Matt 24:36. He DID estalish a new Kingdom. His disciplies didn't pay close enough attention. He told them not to believe anyone who said the kingdom was a PLACE he said his kingdom was inside of us.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



Well yes, but Matthew and Luke were written near the end of the first century. Consider what happened after Mark was written: Peter and Paul were martyred, all the disciples were dead, the Temple was destroyed, and Jesus had not returned to establish the Kingdom that was promised in Mark 13:24-27, 30

And in those days after the affliction, the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give off its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the sky will be shaken; Then they will see “the Son of Man coming in clouds” with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. ....

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

And in Mark 10: 29-30 it seems the disciples are being instructed to leave their families and their lands to follow with the promise they will all be returned a hundred fold now and in this time.

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Seems to me like the gospel written earliest and closest to the Ministry made a strong case for the imminent establishment of a Kingdom on earth. Waddya think, Lady C?



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/29/2010 1:28:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
 
Notice he did not tell them your generation. He said this generation. Meaning he was referring to a particular generation. Not necessarily the disciples' generation.  This generation was most likely  referencing the generation he spoke of at the beginning of his sermon.  The one that witnesses the first signs.  
 
 The first sign was in Mark 13:6- "many shall come saying I am the Christ." (he went on to describe wars, famines, earthquakes and all kinds of doom.) The generation that sees these things come to pass Mark 13: 29 is the generation that will not pass until all these things have been fulfilled. 
 
Now have all of those things happened or not.......I truthfully don't know but Jesus did reaffirm again in  Mark 13:32  that no one except God knows when this will happen.
 
 
And in Mark 10: 29-30 it seems the disciples are being instructed to leave their families and their lands to follow with the promise they will all be returned a hundred fold now and in this time.
 
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
 
Seems to me like the gospel written earliest and closest to the Ministry made a strong case for the imminent establishment of a Kingdom on earth. Waddya think, Lady C?

Possibly, but the disciples did indeed receive many material things as well as persecutions. Check the book of Acts and the founding of the church. People gave everything they had to the early church and all who were part of it prospered from that. Especially the disciples.


Note: I mostly try to avoid Biblical prophecies. They have nothing to do with Jesus' life teachings and I always say that Prophecies are like taking a snapshot of a four hour movie. Its really not gving you enough details to figure out the full plot. Prophecies usually have no time constraints and the meanings can be literal or symbolic and the church tends to  tack one onto just about any event that happens to to prove the Bible is true.
(and btw- I do not believe the Bible is true. I believe that Jesus' teachings are a moral path whether he is deitized or not.)




vincentML -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/30/2010 6:45:09 PM)

quote:

(and btw- I do not believe the Bible is true. I believe that Jesus' teachings are a moral path whether he is deitized or not.)


I understand and respect your viewpoint LadyC. My own interest is in the historical Jesus. At this time anyway. I am extremely curious how a boy from a good Jewish family [:D] could grow up at the center of such a long saga.

I submit questions to anyone who seems to have some educated answers. There have only been a few on here who have had the background to reply from a base of knowledge rather than opinion so I pick brains when I meet them. I hope you don't mind.

There is a body of literature that suggests the historical Jesus was just one of many End Time preachers afoot in Roman occupied Palestine. Paul seemed to think the Jesus message was that the End Time was imminent.

You gave a pretty neat parry to Mark 13: 30 "...this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place."

I wonder what you think of this from Mark 9:1

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

That statement seems awfully convincing that Jesus anticipated the imminent End of the Old Kingdom and the beginning of the new with the Son of Man descending on the clouds to rule in Palestine. Notice he says "come with power." So, not just within but from above and with impact.

Thank you for your patience and your reply.






Aneirin -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/30/2010 6:58:15 PM)

I always understood the kingdom of god and the devil resided within the self, the god the christians worship is in us and outside of us, so that being the god is us, as is the devil and we should guard ourselves for what we are and how we appear to others. It could be that the ten commandments, being guides for morality ensure at least the middle path of balance is taken beyond the extremes, as it is understood not one of us past or present is perfect. I am loosely pagan in belief, but I search through all beliefs for something that feeds my inner spirit, as I believe the truth we all seek is scattered amongst the world faiths if it is the tribes of Israel did in fact scatter across the world to develop on their own.

I am not quite sure where I got this information, but I believe Jesus's intent was to say heaven and hell do not exist externally from the self, for people can live in heaven or hell depending on their approach to life, be that god inspired or other, the message is the same to all people of whatever faith.

Religion is a  construct of man, not god.



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/30/2010 8:31:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

so I pick brains when I meet them. I hope you don't mind.

Oh I don't mind at all. If you haven't noticed by now I absolutely love the intelligent exchange of ideas and love it when I am speaking with someone who challenges me and makes me think. Its fun, its a brain workout and its an opportunity to learn and grow through shared knowledge... (And, its a good reminder to myself that I'm not as dumb as I look). [:D]

There is a body of literature that suggests the historical Jesus was just one of many End Time preachers afoot in Roman occupied Palestine. Paul seemed to think the Jesus message was that the End Time was imminent.

I wonder what you think of this from Mark 9:1

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

That statement seems awfully convincing that Jesus anticipated the imminent End of the Old Kingdom and the beginning of the new with the Son of Man descending on the clouds to rule in Palestine. Notice he says "come with power." So, not just within but from above and with impact.

Thank you for your patience and your reply.



The kingdom is within you: After the death of Jesus, his followers gained a new sense of power.(Acts 2:4) They discovered the kingdom inside of them.  They believed and were unstoppable in spreading that belief. They were beaten, tortured, killed, but NOTHING could stop them. In fact the book of Acts says they were happy when that stuff happened to them. Some say they were filled with the Holy Ghost, others say they were drunk or madmen. I say the kingdom (within them) came with power. 
 
That's my take on it.

And unless you want 60 pages on this thread too, you don't want to know my opinion of Paul and his teachings.[:D]



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (6/30/2010 8:38:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Religion is a  construct of man, not god.



I agree. I don't believe it was ever Jesus' intent to start a new church or religion. His teachings were about the individual man finding the path for himself and within himself.



vincentML -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 7:46:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

so I pick brains when I meet them. I hope you don't mind.

Oh I don't mind at all. If you haven't noticed by now I absolutely love the intelligent exchange of ideas and love it when I am speaking with someone who challenges me and makes me think. Its fun, its a brain workout and its an opportunity to learn and grow through shared knowledge... (And, its a good reminder to myself that I'm not as dumb as I look). [:D]

There is a body of literature that suggests the historical Jesus was just one of many End Time preachers afoot in Roman occupied Palestine. Paul seemed to think the Jesus message was that the End Time was imminent.

I wonder what you think of this from Mark 9:1

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

That statement seems awfully convincing that Jesus anticipated the imminent End of the Old Kingdom and the beginning of the new with the Son of Man descending on the clouds to rule in Palestine. Notice he says "come with power." So, not just within but from above and with impact.

Thank you for your patience and your reply.



The kingdom is within you: After the death of Jesus, his followers gained a new sense of power.(Acts 2:4) They discovered the kingdom inside of them.  They believed and were unstoppable in spreading that belief. They were beaten, tortured, killed, but NOTHING could stop them. In fact the book of Acts says they were happy when that stuff happened to them. Some say they were filled with the Holy Ghost, others say they were drunk or madmen. I say the kingdom (within them) came with power. 
 
That's my take on it.

And unless you want 60 pages on this thread too, you don't want to know my opinion of Paul and his teachings.[:D]


lmao !!! Thank you, LC



vincentML -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 8:03:21 AM)

quote:

I always understood the kingdom of god and the devil resided within the self, the god the christians worship is in us and outside of us, so that being the god is us, as is the devil and we should guard ourselves for what we are and how we appear to others.


This is an interesting and historical dichotomy that was developed (possibly originated) from the Hellenistic philosophers (Plato, Aristotle) which influenced Christianity through the middle ages and lead, some say, to the elevation of the spirit (good) and debasement of the materialistic flesh/sex (bad) resulting in roaming northern european cults of flagellants and other ascetic self-deniers.

Early on it was also a strong theme among the Christian Gnostics, was it not, who in turn were probably influenced by Eastern Gnostics. I have read that there were a variety of gnostic cults in Asia Minor during the first two centuries CE and possibly before. I can see the lingering influence on our sexual mores can't you? [:)]



thornhappy -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 7:02:39 PM)

What church?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Take a second look, Lady C. Jesus was preaching the End of Days and seperated the sheep from the wolves, the least from the most, the first from the last, the saved from the condemned. It wasn't all love and roses yanno.

True, but for the first time in history the least, the last and the condemned were not determined by money, social status or religious dogma.. His Ministry was to and for beggars, lepers, thieves, prostitutes; the rejects of society; the ones the church had written off as hellbound.



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 7:07:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

What church?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Take a second look, Lady C. Jesus was preaching the End of Days and seperated the sheep from the wolves, the least from the most, the first from the last, the saved from the condemned. It wasn't all love and roses yanno.

True, but for the first time in history the least, the last and the condemned were not determined by money, social status or religious dogma.. His Ministry was to and for beggars, lepers, thieves, prostitutes; the rejects of society; the ones the church had written off as hellbound.



The one the scribes and pharisees were accepting donations at. Also called the temple.



thornhappy -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 7:07:22 PM)

Well, it would have to change to a kingdom within, since the kingdom "without" never came to pass.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

so I pick brains when I meet them. I hope you don't mind.

Oh I don't mind at all. If you haven't noticed by now I absolutely love the intelligent exchange of ideas and love it when I am speaking with someone who challenges me and makes me think. Its fun, its a brain workout and its an opportunity to learn and grow through shared knowledge... (And, its a good reminder to myself that I'm not as dumb as I look). [:D]

There is a body of literature that suggests the historical Jesus was just one of many End Time preachers afoot in Roman occupied Palestine. Paul seemed to think the Jesus message was that the End Time was imminent.

I wonder what you think of this from Mark 9:1

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

That statement seems awfully convincing that Jesus anticipated the imminent End of the Old Kingdom and the beginning of the new with the Son of Man descending on the clouds to rule in Palestine. Notice he says "come with power." So, not just within but from above and with impact.

Thank you for your patience and your reply.



The kingdom is within you: After the death of Jesus, his followers gained a new sense of power.(Acts 2:4) They discovered the kingdom inside of them.  They believed and were unstoppable in spreading that belief. They were beaten, tortured, killed, but NOTHING could stop them. In fact the book of Acts says they were happy when that stuff happened to them. Some say they were filled with the Holy Ghost, others say they were drunk or madmen. I say the kingdom (within them) came with power. 
 
That's my take on it.

And unless you want 60 pages on this thread too, you don't want to know my opinion of Paul and his teachings.[:D]



LadyCimarron -> RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? (7/1/2010 7:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Well, it would have to change to a kingdom within, since the kingdom "without" never came to pass.


Yes. It would.



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