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When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 11:53:19 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Inspired by both the socialism and unemployment threads, I'm wondering where people think the line should be drawn in just how much charity, personal and public, is appropriate before it becomes counterproductive, or to repeat myself, when does helping someone turn into enabling them?



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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 12:04:06 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I don't think that can be easily answered. It really seems situational to me.

Some people only need a temporary fix. Some people with sever and permanent disabilities need long term help.

The problem as I see it is, people can't be trusted to be honest. Someone somewhere is always trying to game the system.

And how much help? Can anyone really pay a mortgage and feed a family on unemployment?

Social welfare, like many things, does not exist in a vacuum. This was a long way to say," I don't know"...:)

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 12:18:16 PM   
LadyCimarron


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Status: offline 		When the person we are helping ceases to try to or even want to change their behavior or circumstances.

There is a little known controversial movie called Manderlay. It was very powerful. It used slavery in the US as its setting but the message is universal. Its about people being enabled to the point that not only do they not work to be free, they will fight you to remain unfree, foil every attempt at a better life and if need be use you to further their goal of enslavement. It has very little scenery and looks mostly like a version of thornton wilders "our town" but If you can find a copy of it on video, it is well worth seeing.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 12:21:18 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		There's not alot of doubt that some of our social systems are enabling, although they have been reformed quite a bit over the last decade to include more requirements of actually doing something. The problem is, so many people that apply for those benefits have families. While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least).

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 1:30:12 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least).



And what are they learning about how life works?

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 1:40:47 PM   
LadyCimarron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

There's not alot of doubt that some of our social systems are enabling, although they have been reformed quite a bit over the last decade to include more requirements of actually doing something. The problem is, so many people that apply for those benefits have families. While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least).


That begs a different question.
If a parent does not want to work, do we allow their children to starve?
or do we take the children away and pay someone else to do what we would not pay the parent to do?  or do we arrest the parent then we pay total costs for both parent and child, both then being wards of the state?  
 
Its like a paradox that always leads back to the same place.......the place where we pay.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 1:43:20 PM   
LadyCimarron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
While we may be enabling the parents, we are feeding the children (in theory at least).


And what are they learning about how life works?


They are learning that people care enough not to let you die even though you were unfortunate enough to have been born with parents that suck.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 1:48:19 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		And when they are told that they can't get a job, lest their earnings be considered household income and deducted from what the family gets for watching Oprah?

I have to disagree with you, LadyC. I think the entitlement mentality is passed right along, and we have three generations of that currently raising a fourth to look to for the evidence.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 2:05:41 PM   
LadyCimarron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And when they are told that they can't get a job, lest their earnings be considered household income and deducted from what the family gets for watching Oprah?

I have to disagree with you, LadyC. I think the entitlement mentality is passed right along, and we have three generations of that currently raising a fourth to look to for the evidence.


OK, so lets just let the kids starve to death.    One less entitlement generation we have to worry about. Better yet, lets kill them off the way we do all other types of pests. We can start our own little haulocaust and exterminate all the undesirables.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 2:20:27 PM   
calamitysandra


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Status: offline 		I do think what you are saying is valid, Rich. It also goes right to the center of the problem. I am guessing that most would not have a problem with severe limits to the help that healthy adults should receive. I like the definition Lady Cimmaron used :
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

When the person we are helping ceases to try to or even want to change their behavior or circumstances.




But what to do about the children who are caught in such a situation because of their parents? Which solution do you propose?
Let them starve is not something that I could or would accept . I would rather enable some parents, and try to counteract the negative effects of the homes the kids are raised in with education and other programs.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 2:21:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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About 45 years ago.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 2:47:53 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		when you are not teaching them how to do something on their own to survive.

It becomes enabling when you are doing everything for them and you are now their crutch and expecting to rely on your for whatever it is you are giving them.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:12:45 PM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		i think there is too much of  a focus on the lazy unemployed individuals which is urban myth. People dont choose not to work. They are forced by circumstances into times where they cant work. The millions worldwide who are currently unemployed would give their right hand for a job but they cant get one because the system is fucked up because people at the top thought they knew best, paid themselves handsome salaries even though they didnt merit them and sabotaged it for the rest of us mere mortals just trying to survive. Now companies wont hire because of the recklessness of their own actions. They cant make money business is down etc and why is that. One simple answer CORPORATE GREED
kevin

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:25:06 PM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		What we should be really doing is bringing in wealth taxes for those who can afford to pay. Not cutting welfare. Those on 150,000 dollars should be happy to pay a 20% wealth tax. And why? Because they can afford it. And b . Because it signifies that cliche in the employment world, team work, team spirit, communal goals etc that companies parrot but dont pay anything more than lip service too in reality.  But it will never happen because the rich have always been allowed to get away with incompetence while the poor and low paid are always hammered the hardest. The simple fact is its easier to get rid of someone six months in a job than it is a bungling chief executive or senior employee who is costing the company .  And that attitude continues to prevail. Hit hard times. What shall we do?  You would think we would look at the source of the problem ie a sales company , sales representatives.  Rude sales representatives i might add, and i know this as i have talked to clients who have told me they would not buy from my former company because the sales reps were so obnoxious. And hence business was down? So what does my company do? Get rid of the obnoxious sales representatives who are undermining the marketting team's ability to get business leads by their very bad attitude and insolence towards customers. That would seem the logical thing to do. After all if the sales representatives were not so obnoxious to their clients, our customers , we would not be in the shit of business being down in the first place because believe it or not good manners does not cost anything but it will bring the customer back for repeat business if they think they are being appreciated.  But these lunatics know nothing about showing customers that they are valued. Well i ll rephrase it, they certainly have skills in giving people lip. That really enhances our ability to sell our services. NOT. So what does the company do? The obnoxious sales reps stay in situ. And the marketting team who are working their asses off to get leads i was one of them against the background of these MORONS trying to undermine us at every turn with their deplorable customer service skills, are laid off. Because you see its our fault that the company has got much less business. Nothing to do with the obnoxious sales reps. Oh no. Do companies even realise how idiotic this argument is? Have they a brain in their head? Anyone with even half an iota of intelligence would know that bad sales representatives will mean bad sales and decline in business. After all who wants to buy from a business whose sales staff are nasty to you?  But this obvious reality is beyond the mindless morons that run business today
kevin

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:38:36 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		When are we going to cut off the teat that rich`s favorite corporate criminals suckle from?

The big oil co.s get billions of our tax dollars.Then there`s rich`s buddies at Goldman Sacks,AIG,Haliburton etc sucking up our money buy the billions......That`s also socialism....corporate socialism.

Seems to me that they are getting the most tax dollars and doing the most damage......

Just say`n



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/26/2010 3:41:17 PM >

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:40:30 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		The problem is there is no incentive to crawl out of the hole.  Every time someone proposes a Workfare type plan it is voted down.  There is a social conspiracy to keep the poor and lower classes from actually achieving something better.

When you consider that the lower classes are less likely to vote, there is no change in the power structure.  Should Workfare every become the law of the land, and should the chances at higher education ever become equal, the social structure of this country would change dramatically.


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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:43:38 PM   
LadyCimarron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


When are we going to cut off the teat that rich`s favorite corporate criminals suckle from?

The big oil co.s get billions in of our tax dollars.Then there`s rich`s buddies at Goldman Sacks,AIG,Haliburton etc sucking up our money......

Seems to me that they are getting the most tax dollars and doing the most damage......

Just say`n




No one wants to talk about corporate welfare.  They want to pretend that its the fault of the little man who is just eeking by on barely enough to live. They don't want to address the millions of welfare dollars we give to the corporations who are the very ones putting us in this mess.  They just want to cut unemployed americans off...yeah. after we gave millions away in bailouts to big business.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:43:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		You know, LadyC, I think we are running smack into a philosophical canyon I don't know if we'll be able to bridge. You seem to take it as a simple matter of fact that these are things the gov't must step in on.

Once upon a time, we had this amazing thing called a "family" that would step up to the plate, wait for it now, WITHOUT some agency paying them to take care of a niece/nephew or grandchild. It was called a sense of personal responsibility. I am of the mind that 45 years of the US's poverty maintenance programs have helped tried very hard to kill that, and replace it with an entitlement mentality; a basic assumption that these are necessities the government is obligated to provide.

Before somebody starts assigning me a "let them eat cake/let them die and reduce the surplus population," position, I am a firm believer that it is right and proper for a nation such as ours to have a safety net, but also that it should never be allowed to become a comfy hammock. Like Jeff said so wisely in his reply, it is hard to say where the cut-off point is, because we are dealing with all sorts of individuals.

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:50:39 PM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		Yes and look with how these corporations wasted our money and wasted our economies because of their recklessness and greed. And not one chief executive has gone to prison o ver this. In fact no one in management has been made accountable. Instead it s been the lower paid and the employees who have taken the hit
kevin

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RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? - 6/26/2010 3:52:12 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron


No one wants to talk about corporate welfare. 




Don't change the subject, LadyC. We are talking about social and psychological harm of welfare programs, not cost. Do feel free to start another thread and, outside of bringing up the strategic importance of a food reserve, I'll probably agree with you a lot.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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