RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 11:21:09 AM)

That's quite the strawman you are building, LadyE, especially since we've had this conversation before, and you were telling me about someone under your system who decided not to take a job from you because he was doing better on the dole.

I expect nothing but talking points and bad faith arguments from some here. I'd hate to have to regard you in the same class.



Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 11:29:09 AM)

quote:

straw man


Is this the new "in word"? You know..the new words people state here and others pick up on to win an advantage in an argument.. Putting the other person off axis hopefully or to get a certain response out of them.


It's all one big social chessboard isn't it?[:D]



TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 11:36:09 AM)

No, Icky. A "strawman" is when one party in a debate assigns the other an imaginary position that the first party feels competent to attack. Responding that a person who thinks we need to fix the problems in a welfare system wants to starve children is pretty much the encyclopedia example.

The term does get over used, I agree, but here, it's exactly what LadyE is trying to accomplish with her "modest proposals."



lobodomslavery -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 11:55:44 AM)

Whatever. Your not a bastard. That was said in the heat of the moment, i did nt mean it but boy you are a bit hard to work out. A bit perplexing
kevin



Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 12:12:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

No, Icky. A "strawman" is when one party in a debate assigns the other an imaginary position that the first party feels competent to attack. Responding that a person who thinks we need to fix the problems in a welfare system wants to starve children is pretty much the encyclopedia example.

The term does get over used, I agree, but here, it's exactly what LadyE is trying to accomplish with her "modest proposals."


I was right of course...Take notice of the change of name[:D]

The names Icarys as you know, partner.



TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 12:26:34 PM)

I shorten screen nics for just about everybody for my own convenience as a slow typist, and have been since I started posting here. I'm just working with what you provided, "partner."






Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 1:42:42 PM)

Don't do it. We aren't friends and I know people do that to get under the skin of someone much like I did with the partner comment which was of course to show you how it felt.

The convenience thing is flimsy when I know your lying. You actually added a letter that wasn't there..so much for that.



LadyEllen -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:17:57 PM)

Its really quite simple - exposing faulty reasoning by the use of metaphor or analogy is "strawmaning". Exposing dissembly, confabulation, diversion and plain old lies is "socialism". Making a "socialist" point that is strongly supported by solid evidence and sound reasoning indicates youve "lost your grip". Continuing to do any one or any combination of these earns you a "nickname" specifically designed to rile you up and undermine you.

Joe Goebbels would be so proud.

E



TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:19:50 PM)

This ain't group therapy, Icky. Playing along with how you overcompensate on the internet for your RL issues with self-esteem isn't in my job description.

Besides, anybody running around with a superhero for their avatar is just asking for a bit of extra mockery.



TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:22:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its really quite simple - exposing faulty reasoning by the use of metaphor or analogy is "strawmaning". Exposing dissembly, confabulation, diversion and plain old lies is "socialism". Making a "socialist" point that is strongly supported by solid evidence and sound reasoning indicates youve "lost your grip". Continuing to do any one or any combination of these earns you a "nickname" specifically designed to rile you up and undermine you.

Joe Goebbels would be so proud.

E



Damn, LadyE. And you even managed to add a Nazi reference.

Just in a pissy mood, huh? Maybe you need to get laid?



LadyEllen -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:33:07 PM)

Oops! I forgot one! Although of course its really just a subcategory on the "lost your grip" thing isnt it?

E



Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:41:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

This ain't group therapy, Icky. Playing along with how you overcompensate on the internet for your RL issues with self-esteem isn't in my job description.

Besides, anybody running around with a superhero for their avatar is just asking for a bit of extra mockery.


Okay fuckstick..I've just added a few letters to yours as well..I did shorten it as well [:D]

It's just rude ya know..I've asked..that's about all I can do..You of course don't have to listen.



TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:45:13 PM)

Your request has been noted.

So, getting back towards the subject at hand, how long would you let a family member stay on your couch and raid your fridge before you start getting aggressive with suggestions for where he/she might find a job?



Moonhead -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:53:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your request has been noted.

So, getting back towards the subject at hand, how long would you let a family member stay on your couch and raid your fridge before you start getting aggressive with suggestions for where he/she might find a job?

Shitty analogy old boy: this a liberal wellfare programme you're talking about. They'd be sleeping on somebody else's couch and raiding their fridge instead. That's the whole point of welfare programmes, isn't it?



Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 2:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your request has been noted.

So, getting back towards the subject at hand, how long would you let a family member stay on your couch and raid your fridge before you start getting aggressive with suggestions for where he/she might find a job?

If I thought they were going to mooch...They wouldn't make it to the fridge.
Of course my mother can stay for free :> but I know she wouldn't mooch.

Cracks aside...I think they should put people on welfare to work on the city..clean the streets..paint the buildings..get something for the money that's given out if they are able to work. Find out what skills they have and make use of them.

I'm betting a good chunk of them would find work if it's there to be found.
..



Moonhead -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:04:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Your request has been noted.

So, getting back towards the subject at hand, how long would you let a family member stay on your couch and raid your fridge before you start getting aggressive with suggestions for where he/she might find a job?

If I thought they were going to mooch...They wouldn't make it to the fridge.
Of course my mother can stay for free :> but I know she wouldn't mooch.

Cracks aside...I think they should put people on welfare to work on the city..clean the streets..paint the buildings..get something for the money that's given out if they are able to work. Find out what skills they have and make use of them.

I'm betting a good chunk of them would find work if it's there to be found.
..

Workfare programmes seem to be the coming thing over here.
How much does unemployment pay in the 'States? Would it actually work out as minimum wage if you have people being forced into shitwork to claim it? It definitely wouldn't over here.



Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:08:48 PM)

quote:

Workfare programmes seem to be the coming thing over here.
How much does unemployment pay in the 'States? Would it actually work out as minimum wage if you have people being forced into shitwork to claim it? It definitely wouldn't over here.

Always a way to make it work if you really want to. Of course I didn't suggest they get slave labor from them. Pay them the minimum wage as it equals out per hour based on their weekly pay. That's how many hours they need to work to get the help.





TheHeretic -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:08:53 PM)

Actually, Moon, the idea of this thread, before it narrowed into TANF, was philosophical. The moocher on the couch is just as good an example of helping becoming enabling as any of the welfare lifestylers.



domiguy -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:22:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
You're not bright are you? You resort to personal attacks when you are in over your head because you don't want to look foolish and don't understand the concepts. It's not intelligent debate. Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. I'm actually not your research whore and yes, that issue is dead in the water also. In fact, they cannot even suggest education on planned parenthood under one decision. Maybe instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about, YOU should have a clue what the government can and cannot do prior to issuing your sweeping grand theories? eh?


Maybe you should stop your personal attacks before trying to criticize others for doing the same.

If I say something on these boards that is a verifyable fact, and someone questions me, I will fucking link that shit. I won't say "go look it up yourself" because its MY point to make not theirs.

I don't disbelieve you. I just think you're slime because you can't be fucked backing up your own words. There's a difference.


Elisabella, you are lazy. As I have stated before, I find your posts to be tired and never well thought out. I am glad that I am not alone.



cpK69 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:23:22 PM)

~fr~

I was wondering if the idea of charity being enabling, implied that the person receiving it does not want to help themselves. I know people like that.

I think the truth of the matter is, for such people, any amount of charity is enabling.

On the other hand, there are those who only have rare occasions of need a little more to make ends meet. I think a more relevant question in relation to them is; when does helping become disabling.

Perhaps that’s another thread?

Kim



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