RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:43:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Elisabella, you are lazy. As I have stated before, I find your posts to be tired and never well thought out. I am glad that I am not alone.


So put me on ignore jackwhore, it's what I do to you when you get too tedious.




domiguy -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:44:29 PM)

The idea of the nuclear family is becoming more and more of a myth. I am not so sure that the destruction of the nuclear family is what has lead to more cases of welfare recipients. Ever since we have lost ma and pop businesses and replaced those very institutions with corporate minded entities the nuclear family has kind of gone to pass.

If someone is somewhat affluent the demise of the nuclear family might cause some destruction of wealth due to an increase in the cost of long term care for aging parents but probably does not raise significantly the need for "separated or distant" offspring to seek out aid as the majority of these people have gone on to pursue an education and become fairly well entrenched in an industry and are not so easily marginalized.

The majority of permanent or systemic welfare is based upon race and socio demographics. To get the system on track you would literally have to remove these children from their parents at a predetermined age where success is still probable and not too much deprogramming is necessary...Maybe age 5 or 6 might be the cut off. Then you have to bring in some top flight instructors and shut down large unproductive parts of the nation.

The rest of these "undesirables" would of course need to be gassed or cordoned off from the population so their poisonous lack of work ethic contagion could not be spread.

It would take one generation to solve the problem.

Of course continual testing and monitoring would be required to separate the wheat from the chaff and the productive from the non. I would be in charge of that operation.

I would do it without pay.




domiguy -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:47:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Elisabella, you are lazy. As I have stated before, I find your posts to be tired and never well thought out. I am glad that I am not alone.


So put me on ignore jackwhore, it's what I do to you when you get too tedious.


Never. I tend to laugh at your posts.

They make me happy.




Elisabella -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:49:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Never. I tend to laugh at your stupidity.


Your lulz are not my lulz but your lulz are ok.

Wait. No they're not. I'm a judgemental bitch. Sorry.




Owner59 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 3:55:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

This ain't group therapy, Icky. Playing along with how you overcompensate on the internet for your RL issues with self-esteem isn't in my job description.

Besides, anybody running around with a superhero for their avatar is just asking for a bit of extra mockery.


Okay fuckstick..I've just added a few letters to yours as well..I did shorten it as well [:D]

It's just rude ya know..I've asked..that's about all I can do..You of course don't have to listen.




I like that......fuckstick fits well.[:D]

But to be true to his nick,we should use "the" fuckstick[:D]




BitaTruble -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:18:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Inspired by both the socialism and unemployment threads, I'm wondering where people think the line should be drawn in just how much charity, personal and public, is appropriate before it becomes counterproductive, or to repeat myself, when does helping someone turn into enabling them?




On a personal level, I have no problem helping out someone financially if it's obvious they are trying to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps or just got into a bind through no fault of their own. Example - my son-in-law broke his tibia about 5 weeks ago and had to have two screws put in and is currently unable to work so Himself and I are sending my daughter a few hundred dollars as week to supplement her paycheck and his disability benefit. When he gets back to work, we won't need to help them anymore. In the meantime, the little bit extra we are sending every month ensures that my grandchilden are still able to eat proper meals and have electrical and phone bills paid. We have offered to help out friends who were in need and that always comes from the heart. When it becomes an expectation, then it stops immediately and that's just something we have to gauge on a case-by-case basis. Publically, I will never have a problem paying a fair share of taxes for proper roads, police/fire protection etc. When graft or corruption reigns its head, then I protest with my vote. The charity's to which we send $ are pretty set and long term for us and we have set aside a stipend for a few of them when the time comes for us to kick this existance so their work can continue.

As a general rule, we *help* when it is an emergency situation and stop helping when the emergency passes and that has worked pretty well for us to avoid enabling.




Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

This ain't group therapy, Icky. Playing along with how you overcompensate on the internet for your RL issues with self-esteem isn't in my job description.

Besides, anybody running around with a superhero for their avatar is just asking for a bit of extra mockery.


Okay fuckstick..I've just added a few letters to yours as well..I did shorten it as well [:D]

It's just rude ya know..I've asked..that's about all I can do..You of course don't have to listen.




I like that......fuckstick fits well.[:D]

But to be true to his nick,we should use "the" fuckstick[:D]

[:D]






Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:28:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Inspired by both the socialism and unemployment threads, I'm wondering where people think the line should be drawn in just how much charity, personal and public, is appropriate before it becomes counterproductive, or to repeat myself, when does helping someone turn into enabling them?




On a personal level, I have no problem helping out someone financially if it's obvious they are trying to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps or just got into a bind through no fault of their own. Example - my son-in-law broke his tibia about 5 weeks ago and had to have two screws put in and is currently unable to work so Himself and I are sending my daughter a few hundred dollars as week to supplement her paycheck and his disability benefit. When he gets back to work, we won't need to help them anymore. In the meantime, the little bit extra we are sending every month ensures that my grandchilden are still able to eat proper meals and have electrical and phone bills paid. We have offered to help out friends who were in need and that always comes from the heart. When it becomes an expectation, then it stops immediately and that's just something we have to gauge on a case-by-case basis. Publically, I will never have a problem paying a fair share of taxes for proper roads, police/fire protection etc. When graft or corruption reigns its head, then I protest with my vote. The charity's to which we send $ are pretty set and long term for us and we have set aside a stipend for a few of them when the time comes for us to kick this existance so their work can continue.

As a general rule, we *help* when it is an emergency situation and stop helping when the emergency passes and that has worked pretty well for us to avoid enabling.

I think that's a good way of being but what about those on a national scale. I know your in another country..What type of assistance is available there?




Politesub53 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:37:06 PM)

I still dont get this, as I said in an earlier post. Why do Republicans think it is okay for 10% of the population to own 70% of the wealth ( Most of that is owned by just 1% of the population ) While 50% of the population owns just 1% of the wealth. I am guessing its the same in most developed countries, all it proves in my view is wages are at an unfairly low level for work done.




Politesub53 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:40:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Nobody wants to be on welfare Darling. NOBODY. i dont know where you get this Lazy grown people idea and to cut them off. Some have mental health problems by the way , some have looked and cant find a job because this economy is banjaxed, banjaxed in favour of the rich and banjaxed by the rich who in their greed have ruined it for everyone. Some are depressed  by the fact they cant find work, it has made them ill. The social isolation factor of not having work is huge. The stigma factor is huge because of You and others who propagate this lazy unemployed myth, lazy bums etc , i have heard it all. It is completely fictional. the bottom line is NOBODY BUT NOBODY WANTS TO BE ON WELFARE
kevin




You're kind of a dumbass, aren't you, Kevin? You obviously don't understand how the system is set up, and didn't bother to read the information provided in the thread. Are you afraid somebody might cut off your check?


How do you know Kevin is wrong Rich. Sure some people like to milk the system, most dont though and would be better off with a proper job. Its also ironic you resort to insults yet accuse others of doing the same. Pot kettle and black.




Owner59 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 4:54:20 PM)


Yeah,thefuckstick does define hypocrisy,don`t he?

What do you call it when a blind hypocrite calls everyone else a hypocrite?

A bi-hypocrite? [:D]







Politesub53 -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 5:00:30 PM)

I will be happy enough when someone explains to me why 1% of the population own most of the wealth. If anyone tells me that the old money families earnt it. I will remind them most of them stole it off the backs of others.




Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 5:29:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I still dont get this, as I said in an earlier post. Why do Republicans think it is okay for 10% of the population to own 70% of the wealth ( Most of that is owned by just 1% of the population ) While 50% of the population owns just 1% of the wealth. I am guessing its the same in most developed countries, all it proves in my view is wages are at an unfairly low level for work done.


If your addressing me, Polite. I'm neither nor.

My personal opinion is it's not inherently bad as long as the "poor" side isn't being held down by the "rich" side.

I started my business with very little money..as a matter of fact I started all of my business's with very little money. I mean for under 1000 or less...

Most people don't have to stay poor if they'd get up and try a little harder. I've also had a multitude of employees over the last 20 years and not a whole lot of them really wanted to work. Can't complain about money if you had a chance to work and you chose instead to go to billy's house to roll a fatty.


Anyway, I know what your talking about. Unfortunately it does seem like people are being held down a bit but it isn't impossible to live the "American dream" (Whatever that means to you) if you still want it bad enough.




BitaTruble -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 5:42:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I think that's a good way of being but what about those on a national scale. I know your in another country..


I'm not sure what you mean about a national level. As far as I know, welfare is a state thing, right? Has something changed since we left the country?
quote:



What type of assistance is available there?


Well, there's Universal health care which is either free or has a very low cost and everyone is entitled to those benefits. Welfare is based on family size and runs until the child turns 18 and maternity leave is substantial. It's more common for welfare programs to be used in the south where you have a lot of farm workers than here in the north which is very business oriented and people, as a rule, make very good wages up here. Prescription drugs are very cheap so there is no need for extra insurance to cover it but a lot of people who can afford to do so will carry private insurance simply to avoid waiting weeks or months to see a doctor in non-emergency situations. A lot of the assitance is paid for via VAT (Value added tax) which is added to.. well, everything! Himself and I are not required to pay VAT so we save receipts and turn those in for a return of the VAT whenever we leave to visit the States. That was true of Portugal and we'll do the same thing here in Italy. We *are* however, required to pay taxes here and on everything over 76k, we are required to pay a portion to the US as well.

Workers get a daily lunch stipend mandated by law and paid for by the employer. I think it's 5 Euros 80 but don't quote me on that. That might have been in Portugal. There is social security for workers who turn 65 and unemployment compensation is mandated by the Italian constitution. While welfare is a problem, it's not as bad as it could be because the Italian people tend to be *very* family oriented and take care of their own. It would be more unusual to see a single 30 year old guy with his own place than seeing a single 30 year old guy living at home with his folks which helps especially here in the north where housing costs are sky-high. As an example, Himself and I were charged 2200 euros a month for 380 square feet of living space. That was one bedroom, one bath, small living room and small kitchen and that was not the most expensive unit in the complex. To wash and dry a load of clothes was 7 euros per load and didn't include the soap, fabric softner etc. Milan isn't like the rest of Italy though. I think it ranks 10th or 11th of most expensive cities to live in the world so take it all with a grain of salt. Things are much, much, much cheaper everywhere else in Italy. I think the current rate of unemployment in Italy is about 8% or so. Education is not free for universities but it's probably a 10th the price it is in the States. Once I get my dual citizenship my cost will go from about 10,000 euros a year down to less than half that and I won't have to pay for dorm room fees which can run around 4000 euros a year as well.

Corruption and graft are a way of life here so there is little incentive to fix what needs fixing or change what needs changing although things are slowly getting done and I do mean slow.. a word which I am quite sure was invented in Italy! There isn't much in the way of mental health services but, again, here in Milan, not much is really needed. I can't speak for down south but if it's like Portugal, it was a huge problem there and one that simply goes unaddressed most of the time. Public transportation is superb (and cheap, even here in Milan) as it has been in every country we've visted in Europe and the States could really take some lessons on how to do it right in that regard. We've haven't been here all that long so my knowledge of Portugal is much better.. but that's what I've learned so far about Italy. Hope that my answer was somewhat helpful. :)




Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 5:51:10 PM)

Actually that helped a good deal, thank you. I was just curious. I didn't know you were in Italy..I thought you were still in Portugal but couldn't remember. Man that's an awful lot of money for such a small place..I bet your still loving it though.

When I said national level I mean each state as a whole but I wasn't specific.




BitaTruble -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 6:17:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys



When I said national level I mean each state as a whole but I wasn't specific.



Ah. Okay. Well, not sure how to respond. I don't like the idea of children going to bed hungry but my kitchen table only seats 8. Where I am, people are fed. If they are not where I am, then they will have to fend for themselves or take advantage of the charity work that Himself and I contribute towards. Mostly though, I believe that hard work pays off in the end so I'm all about the jay oh bee. Wanna eat? Get a job. I hear there are no jobs.. but, I see all kinds of jobs every day. They don't all pay that well, but they'll usually allow you to survive until you can find something better. If one job isn't enough, get a second one. That's what I did when I found myself supporting two children on my own without a dimes worth of child support and I never got welfare because I was *able* so I did. I wouldn't ask anyone to do something I wasn't willing to do myself. For those who aren't *able*.. there are already programs in place so I'd suggest they get off their duffs and find out what is out there that can help them or if they can't, then hopefully they will have family members who will find out what can be done. I have a brother who is a non-verbal CP and he has a job. Man can't feed himself, walk, go to the bathroom or speak but he works so I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who flat out quit trying.




Jeffff -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 6:29:30 PM)

Bita..... this is a bit off topic,,,,but with all the traveling you do.....have you guys ever considered adding a thin white guy from Chicago ?

I think I would really dig northern Italy.




Icarys -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 6:40:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys



When I said national level I mean each state as a whole but I wasn't specific.



Ah. Okay. Well, not sure how to respond. I don't like the idea of children going to bed hungry but my kitchen table only seats 8. Where I am, people are fed. If they are not where I am, then they will have to fend for themselves or take advantage of the charity work that Himself and I contribute towards. Mostly though, I believe that hard work pays off in the end so I'm all about the jay oh bee. Wanna eat? Get a job. I hear there are no jobs.. but, I see all kinds of jobs every day. They don't all pay that well, but they'll usually allow you to survive until you can find something better. If one job isn't enough, get a second one. That's what I did when I found myself supporting two children on my own without a dimes worth of child support and I never got welfare because I was *able* so I did. I wouldn't ask anyone to do something I wasn't willing to do myself. For those who aren't *able*.. there are already programs in place so I'd suggest they get off their duffs and find out what is out there that can help them or if they can't, then hopefully they will have family members who will find out what can be done. I have a brother who is a non-verbal CP and he has a job. Man can't feed himself, walk, go to the bathroom or speak but he works so I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who flat out quit trying.

I echo that mentality. I had a friend that was severely bi-polar and as long as he was on his meds he was the most docile fella you'd wanna meet..(I digress) He went to work every single day and was happy to do it even though his job sucked...Why? cause he enjoyed seeing his family fed..Which included his bi-polar wife and his autistic son..Man the responsibility he had. Sure he did get assistance but his family needed it.

I have no sympathy for the losers that coast in life and are able to work..Ya know the types that work the system because their lazy pieces of crap and run the streets enjoying life off of the hard work of others.




heartcream -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 8:04:12 PM)

Oh the threads are fun!

100 Million Homeless in World
Most Are Women and Dependent Children




domiguy -> RE: When does helping, turn into enabling? (6/27/2010 8:10:29 PM)

I tell you who really gets my goat....It's those Goddam lazy veterans that come home and now for some reason are unable to support themselves.

So they suffer from a touch of PTSD or a brain injury.

They were given tremendous training and skills and every opportunity to excel and be incredibly viable in the current U.S. economy. Their overall laziness and "can't do" mentality is incredibly disheartening and should not be rewarded by allowing them to suck any more benefits off of the American tax payer.

Boys and girls, it's time to sink or swim. I have no problem letting you starve.




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