quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And that reminds me..... just what are you all so very afraid of... why do you HAVE to have a creator... why are you searching for a reason to be here? Behave ethically, not morally..... I do, and like Bill above, I am at peace and happy. That is until I come across people that are wasting their lives bowing to some concept derived from sun-baked, dehydrated, half-starved desert dwellers with no concept of much of anything except slavery and war.

<snipped>
Why do you care what others do?
<snipped>

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Why are so many non-Believers/agnostics/and or whatever you want to call yourselves so narrow minded?
I make no secret that I am a "BELIEVER" in the GODDESS/GOD/my CREATOR, 100 times infinity. 

I have never said, that I "Believe" 100% in the Bible/and or everything written and/or stated about Jesus Christ.
 
There are probably as many types of Believers as there are non-Believers.
I get tired of all Believers being thrown in similar boats.
 
I consider myself more Spiritual than anything else, when it comes to my faith.
I am not bound by the dogma of many "Believers/especially Christian Believers.

I was recently invited to a very spirit filled non-DENOMINATIONAL


church that is led by an openly gay pastor].



I can't wait to go, and  I am sure I will find the spirit of my GODDESS/GOD/CREATOR there, as much as I find the spirit in many of the DENOMINATIONAL churches I have attended.
 
Many of us are very open minded about our beliefs, and believe there is more than "one way" or "one path".

 
Please don't assume all Believers can be put into neat little boxes, many "Believers" are able to BELIEVE and still think way out of the box.
 
Peace and Blessings to all!
[:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

tazzygirl:

Once again, I'm amazed at your lack of logic. Please go take a basic, basic class in logical thought and how to argue. One of my favorite tag lines here says "Don't come to an intellectual battle without any weapons." or words to that effect.

You just enjoy your bubble-bath existence and keep those rose-colored glasses firmly over your wide-open eyes.

Again, I get angry after making logical, appropriate comments that are answered illogically, or worse answered "Tsk, tsk," as if I'm being pushed aside as a child would be.

I've been a MILITANT Atheist for more than 40 years now - almost as many years as you are old. By "militant" I mean simply "out." Way back then, we atheists dare not speak our name.

Oh, wait.... something about being a Militant Gay is ringing in my head.

Something about the love that dare not say its name....... Maybe, just maybe, we won't put up with your opression any more in exactly the same way that gays stood up to the oppression at the Stonewall Bar.

My stridency is NOT founded on anything but study, study, study. The first example of that is when I was singing in an Episcopal Church choir and sang through all 5 Masses of Easter. Each Mass uses a different Gospel story to tell of the Ressurection. Being bored outta my mind, I sat there and read all five Gospels in a comparitive way, flipping back and forth between them.. They are irreconciable - at the ripe age of 12, I'm thinking "If this is the Word of God, and this is the story of the most important event in Christianity, why are there so many factual differences?" Yeah, yeah, the priest gave the standard answer of "The differences in the Gospels reveal different aspects of Christ. We see this further in the four Gospel icons, chosen to show which aspect of Christ is emphasized." Head spinning, I walked away, thinking "How do different numbers of women at the grave, indicate differenet aspects of Christ?"

You MUST remember this was in 1962..... before the hippie movement, sexual revolution, and spiritually being used as in "Oh, I don't agree with organized religions but I'm spirtual." Wiki tells us: Unitarian Universalism became organized as a religious group in 1961. Crystals and shakras and other Eastern philosphies and practices got a BIG boost when the Beatles got into transidental mediatation. Gee.... what year was that?

So, hundreds of years of Christian dominance in the US has only started to show signs of cracking in the last few decades. Kinda hurts to be told you're wrong doesn't it?

As the gays chant "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it." And you know what? After 30 years of that chant, (most) Americans are okay with gays.

So, I feel in the forefront of the Atheist movement, hence militant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It’s very simple; it is just that there is nothing out there. You say there is a God, fine, prove it, I want evidence! I have never been happier and more at peace since becoming an atheist - now this crazy world makes sense and praying is a waste of time. There really is a God delusion it seems.
Bill

Bill if you were truly happy, you would not give a shit what other people believe. The fact that you think you need to "convert" believers to athieism makes you just as religious as you think believers are. Maybe moreso.

LC:  He isn't trying to "convert" anyone.  In religious terms, he is bearing witness to the happiness and peace he finds in atheism.

The strongest "conversion" attempt I see there is "Try it. You'll like it."  Maybe not even that strong... maybe his "message" is "Try it. You might like it."

Maybe it is, but if someone doesn't want to try it, they should be left alone; not brow beat or ridiculed for it. HE IS NOT BROW-BEATING, HE IS NOT RIDICULING.  READ! READ! READ!  Read what is written - not the words you want to. I just don't think anyone should try to convince someone else give us their way of life if its not hurting anyone else and they are happy with it.

BUT!  Your "way of life" does hurt me.  Every day.  See my just previous post (if I can type fast enough. LOL!) I'll put just one example here.  Belief in a higher power by a majority causes governments to make moral - not ethical laws.

And that reminds me..... just what are you all so very afraid of... why do you HAVE to have a creator... why are you searching for a reason to be here?  Behave ethically, not morally..... I do, and like Bill above, I am at peace and happy.  That is until I come across people that are wasting their lives bowing to some concept derived from sun-baked, dehydrated, half-starved desert dwellers with no concept of much of anything except slavery and war.

Actually I am not afraid of anything and I really don't HAVE to have a creator. Having a higher power is like having a partner in life...NOPE.  Not at all.  A partner comminicates.  Dem der higher power guys don't.  And if you think they are talking to you.... why, we have professionals that can help you with those voices in your head.
 
you don't HAVE to have one, but if you WANT one, that's an ok choice too. Sorry, I see no good in "having" one, whatever the f**k that means.
 
And not everyone will agree with or understand that choice. I'd like to understand that choice, I really would.  Please tell me why you made the choice to believe in a higher power?
 
You are happy and I am happy. Ah, so you are happy being mentally ill?  Again, we have professionals for that sort of "happiness."
 
In the end isn't that all that really matters? So neither of us has to change anything if what we are doing now works for us. Thank God (or thank nothing if that offends you) that ..... I do not "thank nothing" I am glad the Founding Fathers designed a government where .... we live in a day and an age and a place where we can all choose to believe or not believe and we are free from anyone legally forcing beliefs (on [sic] non-beliefs) upon us.

By your suggested, hypothetical "thank nothing" you reveal your lack of knowledge of the most basic positon of an Atheist. 
 
It's the WASTE, stupid!
Waste?  Maybe.....but its my life. If I want to waste it is my choice. Each individual is free to make that choice for themselves as well. Nope. You can't waste your life.  There's laws against that.  Most laws are to protect you from yourself. LOL!  Drunk-driving springs to mind.  Seriously what I meant was the waste in terms of human advancement.  Don't take it personally, y'know.  I meant things like the waste of war and other things above.  
 
And I think its a very beautiful thing when people can accept that others do not have to think the same way they do  Well, again, the definition of reality is an agreement by the vast majority.  I read you as indicating that peole who believe in apparitions, other-wordly creatures and miracles -OR- whatever it is that your higher power does is okaybecause it is not mentally healthy.  and it doesn't have to cause strife or anger or some kind of fight about it. You are happy and I am very happy for you [:D] But hey, that's just stupid me. LOL
 
Much Love  and an equal dose of condensending language to you!
Lady C.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

Lance, now I think we are getting towards the answer to the OP.

I do not want to put words into your mouth, but from your prior posts, I might think …

All religion belief is composed of those things you are intolerant of.

And if this is the case, then I am thinking … the OP has an answer.

It is because non believers believe that belief is: ignorant, illogical, condescending, inconsistent and dishonest.

Is this what you are saying?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

tazzygirl:

Once again, I'm amazed at your lack of logic.  Please go take a basic, basic class in logical thought and how to argue.  One of my favorite tag lines here says "Don't come to an intellectual battle without any weapons."  or words to that effect.

quote:



You just enjoy your bubble-bath existence and keep those rose-colored glasses firmly over your wide-open eyes.

quote:



Again, I get angry after making logical, appropriate comments that are answered illogically, or worse answered "Tsk, tsk," as if I'm being pushed aside as a child would be.

quote:



I've been a MILITANT Atheist for more than 40 years now - almost as many years as you are old.  By "militant" I mean simply "out."  Way back then, we atheists dare not speak our name.   Oh, wait.... something about being a Militant Gay is ringing in my head.  Something about the love that dare not say its name.......

Maybe, just maybe, we won't put up with your opression any more in exactly the same way that gays stood up to the oppression at the Stonewall Bar.

quote:



My stridency is NOT founded on anything but study, study, study.  The first example of that is when I was singing in an Episcopal Church choir and sang through all 5 Masses of Easter.  Each Mass uses a different Gospel story to tell of the Ressurection.  Being bored outta my mind, I sat there and read all five Gospels in a comparitive way, flipping back and forth between them.. They are irreconciable - at the ripe age of 12, I'm thinking "If this is the Word of God, and this is the story of the most important event in Christianity, why are there so many factual differences?"  Yeah, yeah, the priest gave the standard answer of "The differences in the Gospels reveal different aspects of Christ. We see this further in the four Gospel icons, chosen to show which aspect of Christ is emphasized."   Head spinning, I walked away, thinking "How do different numbers of women at the grave, indicate differenet aspects of Christ?"

quote:



You MUST remember this was in 1962..... before the hippie movement, sexual revolution, and spiritually being used as in "Oh, I don't agree with organized religions but I'm spirtual."  Wiki tells us: Unitarian Universalism became organized as a religious group in 1961.  Crystals and shakras and other Eastern philosphies and practices got a BIG boost when the Beatles got into transidental mediatation.  Gee.... what year was that?

So, hundreds of years of Christian dominance in the US has only started to show signs of cracking in the last few decades.  Kinda hurts to be told you're wrong doesn't it?

quote:



As the gays chant "We're here. We're queer.  Get used to it."  And you know what?  After 30 years of that chant, (most) Americans are okay with gays.

So, I feel in the forefront of the Atheist movement, hence militant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

HE IS NOT BROW-BEATING, HE IS NOT RIDICULING.  READ! READ! READ!  Read what is written - not the words you want to.

Your opinion.....now can you say the same thing about yourself?

BUT!  Your "way of life" does hurt me.  Every day.  See my just previous post (if I can type fast enough. LOL!) I'll put just one example here.  Belief in a higher power by a majority causes governments to make moral - not ethical laws.

While that totally appeals to the sadist in me, [;)] You don't know what my beliefs are (or whether or not I even have any)  if you don't ask me. And in this case you did ask. I may believe in a higher power, but you don't know how I interpret that or what it means to me or what my "way of life" is. So whatever you think believers are doing to you, stop asking about their beliefs....that should help. 
If you have a problem with your govn't then you need to campaign and communicate with your elected officials just like everyone else.
I fully agree that govn't should make ethical and not moral decisions. [;)]See I knew we could agree on something.

NOPE.  Not at all.  A partner comminicates.  Dem der higher power guys don't.  And if you think they are talking to you.... why, we have professionals that can help you with those voices in your head.
 
Fortunately communication with a higher power is not really necessary in my belief system. 
Some of those professionals are called PASTORS and MINISTERS. 
 
Sorry, I see no good in "having" one, whatever the f**k that means.
 
Then I would advise against you seeking a higher power, since it obviously doesn't work for you

I'd like to understand that choice, I really would.  Please tell me why you made the choice to believe in a higher power?
 
The same reason I chose the BDSM lifestyle.  I just like it. If you don't like it don't choose it.

Ah, so you are happy being mentally ill?  Again, we have professionals for that sort of "happiness."
 
If that's what you want to call it yes.  BTW- Mentally ill people do not normally need to see professionals if their illness is not effecting their ability to take care of themselves and live a productive life.
And my psychiatrist says I normal  [:D] (I just had to throw that in)

I do not "thank nothing" I am glad the Founding Fathers designed a government where .... we live in a day and an age and a place where we can all choose to believe or not believe and we are free from anyone legally forcing beliefs (on [sic] non-beliefs) upon us.

Something else we agree on! If this keeps up we could be friends. (as long as we don't talk about spiritual matters.)[:)]

By your suggested, hypothetical "thank nothing" you reveal your lack of knowledge of the most basic positon of an Atheist.  
 
Then maybe you should be explaining your position instead of trying to change mine.  It really doesn't matter to me, what the Atheist, theist, Agnostic or anyone else's position is. Its your business and your position and you have a right to have it.
 
Nope. You can't waste your life.  There's laws against that.  Most laws are to protect you from yourself. LOL!  Drunk-driving springs to mind.  Seriously what I meant was the waste in terms of human advancement.  Don't take it personally, y'know.  I meant things like the waste of war and other things above.   
 
Check out the number of homeless people living on the streets. NOPE not against the law to waste your life. 
 
Actually DD laws are not in effect to protect the indvidual driving they are to protect someone he might hit while driving drunk..... just ask the Mothers of MADD. (or anyone who has lost someone to an accident of that type.)
 
And if you want to stop wars you should be trying to get rid of MONEY. That is the driving force behind wars and the reason the US is in two wars as we speak. Not God, MONEY.

Well, again, the definition of reality is an agreement by the vast majority. 
 
Whew! Good thing the majority is on my side.[;)] (at least for now...that could always change but I'm pretty flexible)
 
I read you as indicating that peole who believe in apparitions, other-wordly creatures and miracles -OR- whatever it is that your higher power does is okaybecause it is not mentally healthy. 
 
You would be right. If people believing in those things are not running around breaking laws and hurting people, their right to believe whatever they want is constitutionally protected just like yours and mine.
 
and an equal dose of condensending language to you!   
I really was not being condescending. I said it because name calling, ridiculing and brow beating people who disagree with me is not really my style (its how children debate)...............spreading love is my style[;)]
 
The fact that it gets your goat is just icing on the cake[:D]

Much Love
Lady C

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And that reminds me..... just what are you all so very afraid of... why do you HAVE to have a creator... why are you searching for a reason to be here? Behave ethically, not morally..... I do, and like Bill above, I am at peace and happy. That is until I come across people that are wasting their lives bowing to some concept derived from sun-baked, dehydrated, half-starved desert dwellers with no concept of much of anything except slavery and war.

<snipped>
Why do you care what others do?
<snipped>

I care for my fellow man.  I don't want them to waste their lives.  I don't want them wasting their money on nonsense.  I want then to live life fully, without fear.  "No Gods. No fear." is my bumper sticker.  I want the terror surrounding death to be dissapated.  I do not want to open the newspaper and see the horoscopes.  I do not want to have to go shopping in December and be told, "Celebrate the Solictice." Guess what? There's nothing to celebrate.  I want my government to make ethical laws - not moral ones.  I want the Ten Commandment monument removed from the State House grounds - we local Atheists sued to no effect.  I want the Creche removed from the City & County Building steps.  We local Atheists sued to no effect.  I want the school boards to stop being bombarded by Intelligent Design advocates.

Those are the things that I want for my fellow man.  THAT is why I care......

AND I WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO LISTEN TO INTELLIGENT, WELL-THOUGHT-OUT POSITIONS INSTEAD OF SAYING (in effect) "GO OVER THERE AND LEAVE ME ALONE TO WALLOW IN MY STUPIDITY."

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Trying to start your own religion?

quote:

HE IS NOT BROW-BEATING, HE IS NOT RIDICULING. READ! READ! READ! Read what is written - not the words you want to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Yep. That's why I appear to be close-minded. And after hearing the same ignorant, same illogical, same condensending, same inconsistent, and same dishonest arguments, explanations, fallacies and just plain nonsense for almost 40 years, I get a little snappish (if you know what I mean.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

Lance, now I think we are getting towards the answer to the OP.

I do not want to put words into your mouth, but from your prior posts, I might think …

All religion belief is composed of those things you are intolerant of.

And if this is the case, then I am thinking … the OP has an answer.

It is because non believers believe that belief is: ignorant, illogical, condescending, inconsistent and dishonest.

Is this what you are saying?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
Yeah, but just don't be behind a car that has that bumper sticker: "In case of rapture, this car will be driverless." 

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So what if Lance is intolerant of those things? I happen to be intolerant of them as well. If the believers would keep their beliefs to themselves then we'd never have any reason to even discover the believer is someone we're intolerant of.

This has always been quite simple. Believers feel they are allowed to spout their fantasies at any time and never be challenged on it. That's not how it works. If you want to tell me all about your beliefs I am certainly allowed to tell you how utterly foolish I think those beliefs are.

quote:

Believers and non believers should just leave each other alone.