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Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 7:50:37 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

In regards to those who many call just benefit scroungers for their inability to find or stay in gainfull employment like the rest of society, could it be those that dip out of the system do so because they are at odds with it ?

Could it be under the applied term lazy that those on welfare have a different thought to how life should be lived, and if the situation arose they would be rather working than scrounging ?

Perhaps it is those who reap benefit payments actually see the futility in a slave labour work market.

Any thoughts ?

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/30/2010 7:52:21 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

Post #: 1

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 7:54:48 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Could it be under the applied term lazy that those on welfare have a different thought to how life should be lived, and if the situation arose they would be rather working than scrounging ?

Any thoughts ?

If they have a different view on how life should be lived, that is cool for me, but then don't go on benefits.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 2

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 7:57:15 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Could it be under the applied term lazy that those on welfare have a different thought to how life should be lived, and if the situation arose they would be rather working than scrounging ?

Any thoughts ?

If they have a different view on how life should be lived, that is cool for me, but then don't go on benefits.

the.dark.

But in truth,the society which we have built up, can people who have alternative ideas and there implement them, or is it the reality that we are too well controlled.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 3

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:06:37 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

In regards to those who many call just benefit scroungers for their inability to find or stay in gainfull employment like the rest of society, could it be those that dip out of the system do so because they are at odds with it ?

Could it be under the applied term lazy that those on welfare have a different thought to how life should be lived, and if the situation arose they would be rather working than scrounging ?

Perhaps it is those who reap benefit payments actually see the futility in a slave labour work market.

Any thoughts ?

I grew up in an economically depressed area. There were many people who lived off of various forms of public assistance. There were those who changed jobs like they changed underwear, there were those who worked their asses off at low paying jobs, and then there were those who were independently wealthy. There was a really small middle class where I grew up.

In my travels what I found, and since read on the subject, is that those who live on the dole, or public assistance vary in the reasons why they are accepting it. But those who are chronically dependent on the system tend to have that skill set for survival. Those that do this are small in number, but they are a glaring example of the worst that can come from public assistance. If you are a generational recipient of government assistance, this is what you know. You know about filling out their forms, answering their questions, loopholes to stay in the system longer, and how to hide other subsistence strategies you use to fill in the gaps that public assistance doesn't cover.

I do not think this is a "culture of poverty" per se. I think it is a structural problem with the system that there are those who have no other skills that lead to a sustainable subsistence strategy. I do not think that people who subsist this way to be "lazy", it is hard work to live under the poverty line. It is hard work to figure out how to feed yourself and dependents, house yourselves, etc, on the pittance that is public assistance. Those living this way may be hopeless, ignorant of how to escape it, and lack the skills for any other sort of life...

My thoughts tend toward there being many sorts of types that receive aid, but those who remain in the system for long periods of time, I tend to think of the theoretical rubric of "learned helplessness"... that is just my thoughts on what I have seen, experienced, and what I have learned through academic research on the topic of chronic poverty.....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 4

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:18:14 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But in truth,the society which we have built up, can people who have alternative ideas and there implement them,

Yes and without the aid of being on benefit... that is just rubbish to use the contributions of other people to fund your own lifestyle.

quote:

or is it the reality that we are too well controlled.

You are only as controlled as you believe you are and allow yourself to be.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 5

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:25:30 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

You have to understand of course a lifestyle on benefits is a severely limited lifestyle, not the skive many think it is, or are told by government who like to shift the public eye onto defenceless groups of people to take the scrutiny of themselves and the real reason for the problems of people being on the benefits in the first place.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 6

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:30:44 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

You have to understand of course a lifestyle on benefits is a severely limited lifestyle, not the skive many think it is, or are told by government who like to shift the public eye onto defenceless groups of people to take the scrutiny of themselves and the real reason for the problems of people being on the benefits in the first place.

You say it like I don't have any experience. I do and you know that.
But I never used benefit to fund my lifestyle, that just sucks. Benefits is for the basic means of support. Just because I choose an alternative lifestyle or as you put it have a different thought to how life should be lived, I did not and don't have to rely on the government (and ultimately Joe Public) to fund that.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 7

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:38:36 AM

jennileigh8182

Posts: 173
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline

To begin, does anyone else feel like this is just a post to make some feel better about themselves?

Now, to the actual topic...i am the divorced mother of a toddler, attending school fulltime to pursue a change in career. I work, I go to school, I'm a mom, and yet, i was absolutely CRUSHED when i finally faced the facts this winter that i was not making ends meet, and i had to get some help. i applied only for daycare and food assistance, as we are living with family until i finish my nursing program. Even so, i was mortified. I was raised in an area that is mostly middle class, where everyone tends to have teh attitude of "work for what you want." You want more or better? Work harder or longer, find a better job that will let you do so, but do it by your own efforts. i absolutely cannot get by on what income i'm able to make around classes and the small amount of child support i get. It's an area with poor job options, but at least i have a job.

i do have issues with those who simply stay on assistance and make no effort to better their situation. Sure, it's hard work to do all the paperwork and talk to the right people to keep your benefits going, but i don't understand the lack of shame, the desire to be self-sufficient, the urge to -improve.- i want more, better, nicer, bigger, and am using my TEMPORARY assistance to let me finish my second degree, change my career, and be able to provide that better life for my son and myself. i think our issue is that people have really come to believe that they should be taken care of to a basic level...which i completely do not agree with. No one owes us anything. For those with a change in circumstances, a hardship, a temporary situation, sure, i'm all for helping them, and always have been. However, i do not agree with lifetimers on assistance. You don't have skills? Go out and train for some! There are all manner of training programs available and agencies willing to help pay for them. I have one bachelor's degree and am pursuing my second, so none of those are open to me. I'm taking student loans, working my tail off, and scraping by until I'm done. I really think it's a matter of personal pride and ambition.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 8

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:45:53 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

You had the cultural capital to do the things that you do... not everyone is employable, literate, not everyone has the skills to work and parent...Not everyone is as lucky as you to live in a middle class environment. In this country right now there aren't even enough jobs to go around for the skilled, much less the unskilled...

Believe it or not, those who claim to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps rarely did so, we are not an island unto ourselves...

And btw, if you are attending a public university that is subsidized by tax dollars for you to make something better for you and your child. It is seen as a way to create productive people that will one day improve this country... why would you see other forms of public assistance that help you to achieve that as being shameful? You are accepting public assistance just by attending college in the first place

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jennileigh8182)

Post #: 9

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 8:57:09 AM

jennileigh8182

Posts: 173
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline

Considering that basic education is required in this country, then everyone has at least a basic level of skills, which makes them employable at some basic level. Because everyone is required to attend a certain amount of school, everyone should be literate. I do not see any valid reason to spend your life on assistance. Disability is something different in my mind, but general assistance? No reason to make it a lifetime situation. Yes, there's a shortage on some types of jobs, but there -are- jobs out there. They may not be what people want to do, but they're jobs.

My school may receive some federal funding, but it's certainly not paying a major portion of my education. If you want to call that assistance, fine, do so, but also consider then that it's out there and available for the general public. There are schools and training programs that will take you regardless of your intellect level and help you to train for a job. There are employment offices in my area that specialize in helping people find training programs, and then PAY for the training. If they need high school completion, they'll pay for that. There is so much help available to make people employable that I just don't see an excuse for it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:03:14 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

This is scurrilous rubbish. People on benefits HATE being on them. i know when i was on benefit i did everything i could to get off benefit. The fact of the matter is people now have no choice but to be on benefit. Thanks to corporate officialdom the world has been sabotaged. By greed and recklessness. Managers are happily letting staff go even though it is NOT the staff's fault. It is the fault of people at the top who have caused the crisis in the first place. The most damning indictment of corporate business is the fact that some businesses are actually making a PROFIT, but because it is not the PROFIT they were getting a few years ago it is not good enough. So its better to close down the company and put a 1,000 people on BENEFIT than show a bit of conviction and battle through the hard times and see it out the other side. But as i ve said elsewhere the people in charge are idiots, they think of nothing but the bottom dollar, they have no vision foresight, creativity or any of the other buzz words they propagate to employees but do not really believe in and certainly don t implement these fancy ideas in real terms. If they did, millions would not be on benefit. They would be contributing to society which the vast majority want to do. Our tax takes collectively would be higher and the need for swinging cuts and taxes would not be necessary. The more people who are at work the better the economic prospects. But do these heroes ever think of this? Does it enter their insignificant brains? No. And hence we are in the shit that we are in. The problem there is no accountability by people at the top. The salaries at the top are outrageous and unjustified and people at the bottom and in the middle are being hammered, consumer spending is low, because people dont have jobs, hence economic stagnation. But these inventive idiots never think of this when they decide to cull staff. Wonderful ambassadors they are. Superb. NOT
kevin

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 11

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:04:24 AM

LaserKitty

Posts: 153
Status: offline

not everyone has the education that you are detailing. Not everyone is literate. sometimes, for reasons of undiagnosed disabilities/life circumstances, etc, some people do not complete a basic education.

But.. I do agree with:

quote:

i do have issues with those who simply stay on assistance and make no effort to better their situation. Sure, it's hard work to do all the paperwork and talk to the right people to keep your benefits going, but i don't understand the lack of shame, the desire to be self-sufficient, the urge to -improve.- i want more, better, nicer, bigger, and am using my TEMPORARY assistance to let me finish my second degree, change my career, and be able to provide that better life for my son and myself. i think our issue is that people have really come to believe that they should be taken care of to a basic level...which i completely do not agree with. No one owes us anything. For those with a change in circumstances, a hardship, a temporary situation, sure, i'm all for helping them, and always have been. However, i do not agree with lifetimers on assistance. You don't have skills? Go out and train for some! There are all manner of training programs available and agencies willing to help pay for them. {snip} I really think it's a matter of personal pride and ambition.

_____________________________

"Open the pod bay door, HAL"
"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that"

(in reply to jennileigh8182)

Post #: 12

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:04:45 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You had the cultural capital to do the things that you do... not everyone is employable, literate, not everyone has the skills to work and parent...Not everyone is as lucky as you to live in a middle class environment. In this country right now there aren't even enough jobs to go around for the skilled, much less the unskilled...

But most people have the ability to improve their status without having to rely on benefits to subsidize their lifestyle. Disability benefits and child welfare benefits are a totally different thing. But being on benefit whilst trying to live in a different thought to how life should be lived isn't good.

I don't personally see why people on benefits should be embarressed about them though. Shit happens and if you are trying to feed and cloth a family - pride shouldn't come into it.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:09:17 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

Being employed is an ENTITLEMENT not a privilege. You have a right to employment a fair wage and fair treatment. I will certainly not work for anyone who does not treat me fairly. I am not going to lower myself to do Mc Donalds type work. I did not do a college degree to degrade myself like that
kevin

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 14

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:11:49 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

Agreed. Need s must at times. The wider issue is that the State does have a responsibility to provide employment. No one is owed a living but the State does have a responsibility and is duty bound to honour it. Unfortunately our politicians do not have much morals nor much common sense , intellect or clue of any kind. They just dont have the competency to deal with our crises
kevin

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 15

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:12:50 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

I think I am going to have to engage the Claroread......

Please, if anyone chooses to answer, can you break the text up into paragraphs, as I am unable to read what is written and get bored of re-reading the same sentence somewhere in the middle, leading to myself giving up reading your kindly contributed thoughts on my question.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to lobodomslavery)

Post #: 16

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:15:09 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

quote:

This is scurrilous rubbish. People on benefits HATE being on them. i know when i was on benefit i did everything i could to get off benefit. The fact of the matter is people now have no choice but to be on benefit. Thanks to corporate officialdom the world has been sabotaged. By greed and recklessness.

Managers are happily letting staff go even though it is NOT the staff's fault. It is the fault of people at the top who have caused the crisis in the first place. The most damning indictment of corporate business is the fact that some businesses are actually making a PROFIT, but because it is not the PROFIT they were getting a few years ago it is not good enough.

So its better to close down the company and put a 1,000 people on BENEFIT than show a bit of conviction and battle through the hard times and see it out the other side. But as i ve said elsewhere the people in charge are idiots, they think of nothing but the bottom dollar, they have no vision foresight, creativity or any of the other buzz words they propagate to employees but do not really believe in and certainly don t implement these fancy ideas in real terms. If they did, millions would not be on benefit. They would be contributing to society which the vast majority want to do. Our tax takes collectively would be higher and the need for swinging cuts and taxes would not be necessary.

The more people who are at work the better the economic prospects. But do these heroes ever think of this? Does it enter their insignificant brains? No. And hence we are in the shit that we are in. The problem there is no accountability by people at the top.

The salaries at the top are outrageous and unjustified and people at the bottom and in the middle are being hammered, consumer spending is low, because people dont have jobs, hence economic stagnation. But these inventive idiots never think of this when they decide to cull staff. Wonderful ambassadors they are. Superb. NOT
kevin

hope that s a bit better
kevin

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 17

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:18:00 AM

jennileigh8182

Posts: 173
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery
I am not going to lower myself to do Mc Donalds type work. I did not do a college degree to degrade myself like that
kevin

This is part of the issue. A job is a job. If you feel you're too good for it, then it's your problem, not the government's.

(in reply to lobodomslavery)

Post #: 18

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:21:30 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

Think about it like this why should a person with a degree accept a job that a sixteen year old might take for a summer job? why accept a job with shit pay and shit conditions, i know because i have heard how they treat their staff and its not good, minimum wage and worked very hard, why should i do that when i and others like me know we can do better. do we live in a democracy or not if we do i am entitled as a citizen to refuse to work or accept work in Mc Donalds
kevin

(in reply to jennileigh8182)

Post #: 19

RE: Benefit scroungers ? - 6/30/2010 9:23:05 AM

lobodomslavery

Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

There is also what is called suitable work. Mc Donalds is not a job commensurate with my skills
kevin

(in reply to jennileigh8182)

Post #: 20

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