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Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 4:48:16 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline 		Just for discussion/interest purposes. If we look at the definitions of Sadism and Masochism in their strictest, and most basic sense, a Sadist is someone who enjoys inflicting pain, a masochist is someone who enjoys receiving that pain.

But, does that really apply to what we do? Do you actually enjoy inflicting/receiving pain?

That might seem like a simple yes or no question, but for me - although I have a preference for topping, I do not like to inflict or receive pain, not actual 'pain' at least. I always consider what I do to be an enjoyment of giving/receiving heightened sensation. As a Top I have no interest in actually causing real pain to a bottom, only pain to the extent that it triggers enjoyment/pleasure for them.

In regards to the above, do you think there is a difference between the concept of Sadomasochism within BDSM, and 'actual' Sadomasochism? (for want of a better term).

Just to clarify, I'm not intending for this thread to come across as 'You're not a 'real' Sadist/Masochist if *insert X reason' or seeking validations of labels. I'm just interested in engendering some discussion on the subject.
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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:03:36 PM   
dove967


Posts: 102
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline 		Good question. I'll be looking forward to the answers.  If I may add to it, is it the physical pain the Sadist enjoys giving, or seeing the psychological distress illicited by pain.  I've never played with a self professed Sadist,but, seeing as I have an incredibly high pain tolerance, would a Sadist consider that something to be sought in a play partner or someone who reacts readily to lower levels of pain?     My thanks to the OP for the indulgence.

(in reply to Ligeia72)
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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:18:28 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dove967

Good question. I'll be looking forward to the answers.  If I may add to it, is it the physical pain the Sadist enjoys giving, or seeing the psychological distress illicited by pain.  I've never played with a self professed Sadist,but, seeing as I have an incredibly high pain tolerance, would a Sadist consider that something to be sought in a play partner or someone who reacts readily to lower levels of pain?     My thanks to the OP for the indulgence.


Hmm *thinks*, in a Top situation I think for me it is more about seeing the psychological effects rather than the infliction of the actual pain/sensation itself. It's the bottom's reactions that I enjoy (although I don't enjoy putting anyone in real distress), not just inflicting pain for pain's sake. As for a play partner with low vs high levels of pain tolerance, I am happy to adjust for both within reason.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:21:29 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		He gets hard when he hits me. That makes us both happy!

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:21:48 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I actually do enjoy inflicting pain and not just for the sake of inflicting pain (that is a part of it for sure, though) but also, I adore reaction and the opportunity to let my creative self be filled with exploring the physical limits of the human body (mindfucks pretty much rock as well.. but I'm just talking about physical SM right now - if I can incorporate both within a scene, so much the better!) .. the visual art of needle work or carving, the symphony of moans and screams and cries, oh, oh and the smell of fear. I love it. Watching sweat trickle down someones face from the pain I inflict is as beautiful to me as watching a river flow.

As a masochist, I do not *endure* pain, I embrace it and cherish the ability to embrace it with the huge perk that it releases all those delicious endorphins. Without pain I can't get to subspace. I know others can and do, but for me it's the pain or I simply don't fly.

Within the context of BDSM, the only difference to me is one of consent. I actually would not even consider inflicing such pain on anyone who did not agree to allow it prior to engagement. That is a complete and total turn-off for me as it conflicts with one of the few morals I actually have in regard to BDSM. Adults consenting with knowledge and some sort of energy or connection or attraction and I'm there for either side of the lash.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:24:51 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		I love a good beating, especially when I have emotional stuff to let out. It's really therapeutic to be beat til I finally burst into tears and let it all out.

Welcome to the boards by the way

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:25:22 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		In my view there is a difference. I am both. I enjoy doling out pain if my mate requests it. I enjoy receiving pain for the sake of sensation. That is the good, bdsm'y view of SM.
I can also be a traditional sadist. There are occasions when I don't care if I am causing pain or injury, and I will laugh about it (which worked for my days as a bouncer). And there are occasions where I can self adjust due to an accident that brought about unintentional pain to my body (such as accidentally stepping on a hot coal and finding it made me calm).

Most people in a BDSM context enjoy either/or, for the sake of their partner. Some sadists perfer partners who do not enjoy pain so that they might enjoy their suffering. Likewise some masochists are driven to suffer for the sake of their partner and not because they personally need it.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:31:44 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		My Sir was a sadist - he loved to inflict pain on women - but they had to consent to it, and he was very cognisant of the fact that if he damaged his toys, or was TOO hard, they mightn't come back! I think this is one reason he was VERY good at reading subs body language.

For myself, i need the intensity of the pain. I don't understand it myself, but no longer worry about it - i just enjoy it and the results. I find the pain very centering - i lose all stress and tension.  And there isn't anything that does this -except pain.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:39:11 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72
In regards to the above, do you think there is a difference between the concept of Sadomasochism within BDSM, and 'actual' Sadomasochism? (for want of a better term).


I absolutely think there is a difference. One difference I see is that I do not feel that sadism and masochism (or the sadist and the masochist, if you prefer) go together hand in hand as they are often paired. I have sadistic tendencies but have little interest in a paring up with a hard core masochist. Doing those thing to someone who is getting off on the actual activities doesn't get me off. Doing those things to someone who doesn't really enjoy the activities but derives their own sense of satisfaction or fulfillment from having endured them for my pleasure is by far my preference. I quickly back burner things she likes in leiu of things she does not. It's harder to find a partner like that since it is so ingrained in the fetish psyche that everyone has to enjoy everything every step of the way. It's why so many dominants walk precariously close to the role of service top, in my personal opinion.




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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:46:02 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I actually do enjoy inflicting pain and not just for the sake of inflicting pain (that is a part of it for sure, though) but also, I adore reaction and the opportunity to let my creative self be filled with exploring the physical limits of the human body (mindfucks pretty much rock as well.. but I'm just talking about physical SM right now - if I can incorporate both within a scene, so much the better!) .. the visual art of needle work or carving, the symphony of moans and screams and cries, oh, oh and the smell of fear. I love it. Watching sweat trickle down someones face from the pain I inflict is as beautiful to me as watching a river flow.

As a masochist, I do not *endure* pain, I embrace it and cherish the ability to embrace it with the huge perk that it releases all those delicious endorphins. Without pain I can't get to subspace. I know others can and do, but for me it's the pain or I simply don't fly.

Within the context of BDSM, the only difference to me is one of consent. I actually would not even consider inflicing such pain on anyone who did not agree to allow it prior to engagement. That is a complete and total turn-off for me as it conflicts with one of the few morals I actually have in regard to BDSM. Adults consenting with knowledge and some sort of energy or connection or attraction and I'm there for either side of the lash.


Ditto for most of this. You and I seem to have a similar approach to play I've noticed. And yes, definitely incorporating mind play into it as well, using that whole arsenal of tricks to really pull at those emotions, physical reactions, get the bottom flying on adrenaline and endorphin rushes. Yummy

This is more than likely just simple word semantics for me, but even nodding along enthusiastically with the above, I still don't see it as an enjoyment of inflicting pain, but rather an enjoyment of inflicting heightened sensation, which sometimes is done through pain stimulus. Or to put it another way, there is a difference, to me, between a bottom who's whimpering, and moaning, and writhing in a state of heightened arousal through the perception of pain and fear, and someone who actually IS in pain, and terrified. Then again I suppose if I did actually enjoy the former, as opposed to the latter, I'd probably be considered more of a 'textbook' example of a Sadist.

As for the masochistic side of things. Yes, absolutely I don't 'endure' pain, I enjoy it as a way to put myself into subspace. But then again I'm not talking about 'pain' pain, but more the idea of using heightened stimulus to invoke a certain level of arousal/altered state of conciousness - if that makes sense? Although I have always had a slight preference for topping (mainly because I like making people happy/pleasing people) I did use to be more 50/50 with regards to my enjoyment of both the S and M sides of the Sadomasochistic coin. Unfortunately in the past few years I've developed a condition known as Hyperalgesic Pain Syndrome, which means I am very much limited with the type of pain play that is actually pleasurable for me to receive these days. It's turned a lot of the 'Ooh that hurt, do that again' type enjoyment of pain into just outright 'Ok, stop, right now, that really hurts'. Hence I've found myself moving further, and further over to a preference for Topping, partly I think due to the fact that I can satisfy that masochistic side of me by experiencing it vicariously through the bottom.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:49:22 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

He gets hard when he hits me. That makes us both happy!


Same from the opposite side of things for me. If my play partner gets hard/wet/aroused/whatever if I hit them, then as long as they're enjoying it, I'm a happy camper.

Yes I realise this probably makes me a Fluffy Sadist.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:53:03 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		In the right context I can be very masochistic... meaning I enjoy pain

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:55:13 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72
In regards to the above, do you think there is a difference between the concept of Sadomasochism within BDSM, and 'actual' Sadomasochism? (for want of a better term).


I absolutely think there is a difference. One difference I see is that I do not feel that sadism and masochism (or the sadist and the masochist, if you prefer) go together hand in hand as they are often paired. I have sadistic tendencies but have little interest in a paring up with a hard core masochist. Doing those thing to someone who is getting off on the actual activities doesn't get me off. Doing those things to someone who doesn't really enjoy the activities but derives their own sense of satisfaction or fulfillment from having endured them for my pleasure is by far my preference. I quickly back burner things she likes in leiu of things she does not. It's harder to find a partner like that since it is so ingrained in the fetish psyche that everyone has to enjoy everything every step of the way. It's why so many dominants walk precariously close to the role of service top, in my personal opinion.





I have a different take. I am a sadist. I like it. I like it a lot. I like it for how it makes ME feel.

Having said that, I have found it is better with a masochist. Many masochists do indeed feel pain. It hurts them. It fucking hurts them a lot. They just seem to process it differently.

I don't know a single masochist that would enjoy it if they thought I was doing it for them. While having them dig it is nice.....very nice, I still do it for me.

Perhaps a real sadist would say you can only really be sadistic with someone who absolutely wants no pain at all.

First off, those folks tend to call the police.

Second, I don't give a shit what a real sadist would say. It has been a long time since the thoughts of others kept me up at night.


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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:56:54 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72
In regards to the above, do you think there is a difference between the concept of Sadomasochism within BDSM, and 'actual' Sadomasochism? (for want of a better term).


I absolutely think there is a difference. One difference I see is that I do not feel that sadism and masochism (or the sadist and the masochist, if you prefer) go together hand in hand as they are often paired. I have sadistic tendencies but have little interest in a paring up with a hard core masochist. Doing those thing to someone who is getting off on the actual activities doesn't get me off. Doing those things to someone who doesn't really enjoy the activities but derives their own sense of satisfaction or fulfillment from having endured them for my pleasure is by far my preference. I quickly back burner things she likes in leiu of things she does not. It's harder to find a partner like that since it is so ingrained in the fetish psyche that everyone has to enjoy everything every step of the way. It's why so many dominants walk precariously close to the role of service top, in my personal opinion.





So would you therefore see yourself fitting more the textbook definition of a Sadist, and not necessarily the definition of a Sadist within wiitwd? I can definitely see as well how that would limit your choice of play partner. Although in regards to the idea of the ingrained fetish psyche being that everyone has to enjoy everything every step of the way, if someone consents to endure something they don't enjoy, then doesn't that mean that at least in some topsy turvy way they are actually enjoying it at some level? Would they necessarily consent if it was something they absolutely did not what to do, or that wasn't pleasing to them on some level? Just a thought/random musings.

And yes if you wanted to slap a label on me personally, then I would happily consider myself a 'Service Top'.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 5:58:15 PM   
Valyraen


Posts: 746
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72

But, does that really apply to what we do? Do you actually enjoy inflicting/receiving pain?


To answer over-simply, yes. Causing physical pain, even when Kitten doesn't enjoy it, is pleasurable for me. I don't really get any sort of sexual stimulation from giving pain, but it satisfies me on a level that nothing else does - the same way that a big glass of cold water will hit that 'thirsty spot' that all the sodas in the world can't reach. What really makes me cackle like a deranged old man, though, is inflicting mental pain. If I can make someone cringe and twitch from a mental visual, I'm a happy kitty.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 6:01:11 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		From Merriam-Webster.


Main Entry: sa·dism
Pronunciation: \ˈsā-ˌdi-zəm, ˈsa-\
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Marquis de Sade
Date: 1888
1 : a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) — compare masochism
2 a : delight in cruelty b : excessive cruelty
— sa·dist \ˈsā-dist, ˈsa-\ noun
— sa·dis·tic \sə-ˈdis-tik also sā- or sa-\ adjective
— sa·dis·ti·cal·ly \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb


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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 6:12:33 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I have a different take. I am a sadist. I like it. I like it a lot. I like it for how it makes ME feel.

Having said that, I have found it is better with a masochist. Many masochists do indeed feel pain. It hurts them. It fucking hurts them a lot. They just seem to process it differently.

I don't know a single masochist that would enjoy it if they thought I was doing it for them. While having them dig it is nice.....very nice, I still do it for me.



It's more of a two way thing for me. I do enjoy inflicting sensation on someone for my own benefit as much as theirs. If they enjoy it/get off on it, then that heightens my enjoyment of it, and hopefully we sort of feed off one another in order to heighten both our experiences. Hmm ok, that probably wasn't worded/explained very well, but you get what I mean though I hope. (apologies if anything I see isn't clear, I'm under the influence of pain medication that is affecting my ability to concentrate )

When I say I'm happy to identify as a 'Service Top', I certainly don't mean that I consider myself little more than a masturbatory tool on legs with absolutely no regard to what I might like as well. Not saying that's what was said, just wanted to clarify a point.

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 6:12:56 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ligeia72
In regards to the above, do you think there is a difference between the concept of Sadomasochism within BDSM, and 'actual' Sadomasochism? (for want of a better term).


I absolutely think there is a difference. One difference I see is that I do not feel that sadism and masochism (or the sadist and the masochist, if you prefer) go together hand in hand as they are often paired. I have sadistic tendencies but have little interest in a paring up with a hard core masochist. Doing those thing to someone who is getting off on the actual activities doesn't get me off. Doing those things to someone who doesn't really enjoy the activities but derives their own sense of satisfaction or fulfillment from having endured them for my pleasure is by far my preference. I quickly back burner things she likes in leiu of things she does not. It's harder to find a partner like that since it is so ingrained in the fetish psyche that everyone has to enjoy everything every step of the way. It's why so many dominants walk precariously close to the role of service top, in my personal opinion.





I have a different take. I am a sadist. I like it. I like it a lot. I like it for how it makes ME feel.

Having said that, I have found it is better with a masochist. Many masochists do indeed feel pain. It hurts them. It fucking hurts them a lot. They just seem to process it differently.

I don't know a single masochist that would enjoy it if they thought I was doing it for them. While having them dig it is nice.....very nice, I still do it for me.

Perhaps a real sadist would say you can only really be sadistic with someone who absolutely wants no pain at all.

First off, those folks tend to call the police.

Second, I don't give a shit what a real sadist would say. It has been a long time since the thoughts of others kept me up at night.




Yes, you are in fact a card carrying sadist Jeff. Thank god.

I am a masochist. I do not desire fluffy erotic pain (although it's good as a warm up). I desire real pain that is painful. The misnomer that all masochists can convert all pain to erotic pain and are writhing with desire is just that, a misnomer and myth. It hurts. It will eventually stimulate me to the point of orgasm, but that state is not continual by any means. Nonetheless it is what I desire. It is what he desires as well. We are not talking about heightened sensation, we are talking about pain. Mentally, I do enjoy it, physically, not as much. However, the idea that to be a masochist or sadist there is a requirement of fear or enduring, is silly. I don't feel fear. To an extent I may physically endure the pain, mentally I am embracing it. That's not to say it doesn't hurt, it does. I don't have the mental responses to it of fight or flight others would have though.

My perfect companion is a sadist. Not because the myth of conversion is true, but because nonsadists would have a difficult time with the actual pain being inflicted. I am also service oriented and submissive. To the extent the pain becomes really challenging, my focus is HIM and his pleasure. I do NOT want someone to do this ONLY for me, quite the contrary, I am their instrument to express their sadistic desires, I would not play with someone that was merely being a service top (no I am not judging them, merely stating my preference..I am very much a service top with a twist when I switch), nothing is more unattractive or undesirable to me. I enjoy being challenged, I enjoy being pushed, even if in the moment I am not liking it. Sexual arousal is a good companion for him to allow me to take more pain. That doesn't come close to meaning I'm orgasmic all the time from the pain.

KoM once explained this really well maybe he will come along and do that again, he can actually do it better than I can. Rest assured the presumption that S&M is only fluffy play and there aren't real sadists and masochists out there is false. People sometimes hold firm to that belief because it is safe. I think that's why the myth of conversion is repeated so often. I don't feel anything close to terror or abuse though, so rest assured, the myth isn't necessary for me.



< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/30/2010 6:25:28 PM >

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 6:17:01 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ok... but the point is.."Service Top" has a bad connotation. Why?

Who really gives a shit what the , "pure" folks say.

It's like. "Do me".... I expect to get done. Make no mistake, I am indeed a DO me dom, top, sadist, master, daddy.....ok...not daddy.... but the rest?. Yes, I hurt her, I get aroused, there is sex......then maybe a nap..:)

If you and your partner are good with it..... call it whatever you want.

I can not imagine beating, flogging, canning, whipping a woman and NOT fucking her. I know others do and thats their deal.

It isn't mine.




Edited to add....... what Laurell said!

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 6/30/2010 6:22:05 PM >

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RE: Question for Sadomasochists - 6/30/2010 6:25:33 PM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Ok... but the point is.."Service Top" has a bad connotation. Why?

Who really gives a shit what the , "pure" folks say.

It's like. "Do me".... I expect to get done. Make no mistake, I am indeed a DO me doom, top, sadist, master, daddy.....ok...not daddy.... but the rest?. Yes, I hurt her, I get aroused, there is sex......then maybe a nap..:)

If you and your partner are good with it..... call it whatever you want.

I can not imagine beating, flogging, canning, whipping a woman and NOT fucking her. I know others do and thats their deal.

It isn't mine.




Edited to add....... what Laurell said!


Yes, I agree with this totally. As I said in another thread, I do what I do, and I play how I like to play, it matters not to me what others think or how they want to label things. I'm not interested in aspiring to any sort of 'one true label' for what I enjoy in the context of a scene.

I just enjoy listening to/engendering discussion on various points. I like hearing other people's take on things, or how they feel about a particular subject.

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